April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy

@Khahan said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@Topical_Island said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@Khahan having actually done playtesting about this. Running more lands in your deck can really help you beat shops. Specifically, as an Oath player, running more lands let me more effectively board in Energy Flux. That helped me win a much higher percentage of games than I had been before. (I think it was on the order of a 12% jump... I'm trying to go back and find the paper.)

Why do you think that more lands has no effect? Have you tested this theory?

Energy flux does very little against competent shops pilots, especially once ravager is out. You're talking a 3 mana enchantment with a triggered ability they can respond to. Remember, shops is just so much faster these days and ravager laughs at energy flux. By the time you get 3 mana on the board to cast it you need 4-5 mana. By the time you have that shops has you on your heels. When it triggers they tap artifact mana, sac it to ravager and use the floating mana to pay the rest. Or they just pay for ballista and 1 or 2 spheres, let the rest go the yard and finish you off.

And @ChubbyRain - yes absolutely more artifact mana can help. But only if you win the die roll or they dont have 1 of 9 sphere effects out on turn 1.

The tools are out there. Fragmentize, pithing needle, ancient grudge, hurkyls recall, rebuild, even swords to plowshares can all slow down/limit/stop shops. Some of the cards are even versatile against other match ups - fragmentize can help against oath, it can help against landstill if they play stony silence etc. Swords is pretty universal. Generic bounce like repeal can be used in multiple match ups. Pithing needle is such a staple against any BUT gush mentor its almost main deckable.

We have answers at our disposal. Adding lands just isn't going to get the job done for mentor decks, though.

It's pretty important that there are basic lands to fetch for each color. or at least and Island and a mountain/plains/forest for artifact hate. You're right that developing your board of mana one by one won't catch you up, but it helps. And as was mentioned running artifact mana makes a huge difference.

If you're on the draw and they land two spheres on turn one, sure, moxen aren't going to help. Otherwise though, you can play them for one mana a piece, or two in the case of sol ring, and develop a board.

@wappla said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

Shops was half the daily cashes last night. Rich Shay, who spent the better part of the last year using his celebrity to moan about Gush homogenizing blue decks, played Stax.

No one made the argument that restricting Gush would hurt Workshops more vocally than Mr Shay, and yet a day after the announcement, he is playing Workshops. The gross hypocrisy aside, this once again illustrates how idiotic the argument against Gush was. It took the very person saying restricting Gush would hurt Workshops a full 24 hours before registering Workshops. Just amazing...

Or... it's entirely possible two days into the new meta that he, like the vast majority of us, isn't sure what the best approach is yet so he's testing different types of decks? He played Punishing Oath the first day of restrictions, so no he really didn't immediately jump to Shops, he's feeling things out like everyone else, and because he championed getting rid of Gush doesn't mean he was somehow obligated to immediately present us with a new blue deck that solves the format. "Shops being hurt" is a predicted outcome of a meta that has had time to adjust and sort itself out, which hasn't yet been the case.

@Khahan said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

Can we please stop spouting this nonsense that the way to beat shops is having more lands in your deck? Its just not true. Its been said on these boards in the past and its been shot down on these boards in the past.

And this is why mana denial decks will keep winning.

@wappla

Rich Shay, who spent the better part of the last year using his celebrity to moan about Gush homogenizing blue decks, played Stax.

Yes, I've played Stax. I've played Punishing Oath. You can look forward to seeing a list posted today that involves As Foretold. As is often the case, I play a variety of decks.

No one made the argument that restricting Gush would hurt Workshops more vocally than Mr Shay, and yet a day after the announcement, he is playing Workshops.

I never said that restricting Gush would kill Shops. And that wouldn't be a good goal. Restricting Gush would free up space for decks choked out of the format. In fact, I believe that Stax is one such deck.

The gross hypocrisy aside, this once again illustrates how idiotic the argument against Gush was.

I am afraid that whoever taught you the definition of "hypocrisy" did you a severe disservice. At your age, you still apparently don't know what the word means. I would be a hypocrite if I said never to play Shops and then did so myself. Instead, I have advocated that Shops would be hurt by the restriction of Gush. I stand by that.

The metagame is going to be in a state flux for a little while. During that time, raw power is going to be at a premium. Reactive decks, designed to tackle an existing metagame, will only be able to develop once things are more established. We've seen a lot of diversity among successful decks, with Control Dredge winning last night.

I am going to continue trying new decks. You could do that as well. Or you could spend your days whining about my deck choices. Either way.

@Brass-Man Yup, been running it too alongside 4 x Ancestral Vision and that's powerful. I truly believe @The-Atog-Lord can make it work better than me though.

@The-Atog-Lord said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

I never said that restricting Gush would kill Shops. And that wouldn't be a good goal. Restricting Gush would free up space for decks choked out of the format. In fact, I believe that Stax is one such deck.

I have advocated that Shops would be hurt by the restriction of Gush. I stand by that.

Either straight contradiction or you think Shops in general will be hurt but Smokestacks in particular will be helped

@The-Atog-Lord self-deception is notoriously hard to detect

@wappla said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@The-Atog-Lord self-deception is notoriously hard to detect

I agree. That is why I am helpfully pointing yours out.

@The-Atog-Lord you can bully me all you want. You can sit in front of your webcam and say whatever you want. You can play whatever decks you want.

But I'm right, and you're wrong. You might be able to deny it now, but weeks and months will pass and the data will accumulate. I'll be ready to accept your apology at any point.

I'm sure you're far more experienced at internet flame wars than me, so I'm stepping out here.

last edited by wappla

@wappla One person is showing bullying behavior here, and it's not Rich.

@ajfirecracker Stax was pushed out of the meta due to token generators. Diminishing the number of token decks will help stax but (at least in the medium term) diminish the winrate of the current most popular shops decks which feast on token/gush strategies. @Prospero has a detailed post in this thread: http://www.themanadrain.com/topic/1156/let-s-talk-about-stax-maybe

last edited by diophan

@diophan said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@ajfirecracker Stax was pushed out of the meta due to token generators. Diminishing the number of token decks will help stax but (at least in the short term) diminish the winrate of the current most popular shops decks which feast on token/gush strategies.

Here's the only problem with this theory that other shops decks will compete now that gush is restricted - current shops decks need a natural predator that they have to adapt to. Currently that deck is. . .?????

There also has to be an actual reduction in token strategies for stax to be viable again. Surely in the short term as people who felt gush was the problem explore this may be the case. But I honestly think when the dust settles we are going to have mentor decks (most likely PO mentor) and shops decks very similar to the build we have now.

The reason for this has nothing to do with gush being restricted or unrestricted. We have plenty of fantastic brewers out there like Brian Kelly, Joe Brennan, Josh Potucek and Rich Shay to name a small handful showing the community just how many different decks are viable and competitive. But the community as a whole is going to fall back into the perceived best - which will still be the explosive abilities of mentor.

Short term yes, we'll see some changes, but after 2-3 months we're right back where we were last week: with 2 decks vying for the GOAT title being played by the bulk of the field. And just a note - I'm talking paper meta. No clue how mtgo will shake out.

@wappla First you used Rich's deck choice in a daily to attack him. Then you called him a hypocrite. Then you made a snide remark suggesting he was engaging in self-deception. Then you claim you are the one are being bullied?

Unbelievable.

last edited by Hrishi

@Hrishi Yet, somehow oddly believable. Hooray for inductive reasoning!

wappla bitches more than I do, but

  1. it isn't his 'shtick' like is mine
  2. doesn't have any valid results to warrant being bitchy

Attacking Rich Shay makes me lose all respect for you.

Dear @wappla

Stop being a dick to @The-Atog-Lord . That's my job.

Love,

@The-Gremlin-Lord

  • 130
    Posts
  • 70732
    Views