April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy

Gush has been the best blue strategy for a long time. @ChubbyRain was winning with Gush decks that didn't play any of the traditional win conditions just to show that those win conditions didn't matter. It's Gush that allows you to stay ahead on cards, which more often than not will lead to victory.

Very few blue decks could reliably keep up with Gush, and once you added Mentor into the mix I'll admit that things got even worse.

@wappla I honestly don't think that would be hard at all. I do explain crap for a living though.

@ChubbyRain the point was that people got hung up on the Gush classification and miss the fact Mentor is the threat. For example, I remember when noobs were looking to jam any Delve spell into Delver, prior to Treasure cruise and DTT being hit by B&R.
So, I wonder... what will Mentor decks be categorized as now? Also, will the cards replacing Gush and Probe be up for restriction next time around? Most likely.

@ribby said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

If you're a Vintage player who has no interest in advancing the format and would rather play Control Slaver mirrors for a decade, congrats! You have a 'voice'.

This sounds so much better than the retarded-monkey-throwing-its-own-shit that was the last Gush format.

Oh look, I've probed you and you have stone nothing in hand! Well, Guess I can't beat the topdeck gush into gush into mentor plus time walk into gush draw. Fuck.

@vanquish said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

doomsday was a gush deck that was not even considered a contender in the meta prior to this restriction and yet it gets hit heavily. Its not even on the same level with mentor-gush when it comes to resiliency and closing out games and yet it gets hit heavily. I can accept probe, but gush??? they could have at least restricted mentor first and monitored if gush is still problematic. For WoTC to neglect support for vintage but afford to be so bold to impose restrictions like this leaves a bad taste in the mouth.

Doomsday will be benefited by this. I already posted a preliminary list on the Vintage Facebook Group. I will be working extensively with the archetype.

Gush decks were a burden for doomsday, because you couldn't leverage your Duress effects due to them randomly gushing into flusterstorm or Force, which happened to me SO MUCH. They can't realistically do that now, and at least in theory the Mentor decks are slower, which will allow Doomsday and Dark Petition storm to flourish.

@Islandswamp said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

Gush has been the best blue strategy for a long time. @ChubbyRain was winning with Gush decks that didn't play any of the traditional win conditions just to show that those win conditions didn't matter. It's Gush that allows you to stay ahead on cards, which more often than not will lead to victory.

Very few blue decks could reliably keep up with Gush, and once you added Mentor into the mix I'll admit that things got even worse.

I literally won every event I signed up for from March 2012 until the Championship (where McCarthy, Mastriano and I took 11th, 12th, and 13th on the same list). I even won the Preliminary not dropping a Match - beating decks that were 'designed to beat delver' like Blaine Christiansen's Triskelion Shop deck (back when Triskelion wasn't played in shops).

this was before Young Pyromancer or Monestary Mentor, and before Treasure Cruise and Dig Through Time.

Trust me, Gush needed to go.

@ribby said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

https://twitter.com/mtgaaron/status/856590909349089281

"The catalyst for B&R changes to ANY format is player feedback (then we go to data, design theory, & testing). So thank you for all feedback!"

If you're a Vintage player who has no interest in advancing the format and would rather play Control Slaver mirrors for a decade, congrats! You have a 'voice'.

Seeing as how control-slaver is my favorite deck ever I'm all for this!!! 😉

Well, hopefully this is a good shakeup, and if nothing else, at least we can put the pro/con Gush debate to rest for a few months.

It'll be curious to see if Gush was a real problem or not. I noticed they mentioned the card Monastery Mentor three times in the announcement, but never mentioned the card Gush. I feel like we'll be back here again in three months debating Mentor restriction. Much like YWill, Tendrils, or Dig Through Time, Mentor is a card that just feeds off of everything else around it. A critical mass card. I don't know that "answer cards" are ever the solution to a card like this, as it just creates too many issues, but anxious to see what people create!

I think Monastery Mentor and Thorn of Amethyst will be the next two cards to join the Restricted list; probably not until 2018 or 2019.

@Ten-Ten said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@ChubbyRain the point was that people got hung up on the Gush classification and miss the fact Mentor is the threat. For example, I remember when noobs were looking to jam any Delve spell into Delver, prior to Treasure cruise and DTT being hit by B&R.

How is what "noobs" did with anything relevant to...anything? Like what are you even trying to say? That because stupid people exist the means a classification is invalid? I can't speak for "noobs" unless you are including me as one, but I would much rather you provide a clear point.

So, I wonder... what will Mentor decks be categorized as now? Also, will the cards replacing Gush and Probe be up for restriction next time around? Most likely.

We release raw data. We release analysis by tags, which include Mentor. We release analysis by sub-archetypes which includes Gush Mentor. I typed up all the decks from Eternal Weekend... How many people played Gush Mentor at Waterbury? It's right there in the original post. Again, I acknowledge that classification by whatever is a flawed process and I'm willing to discuss it, but this is not constructive at all. It's asinine and frankly disrespectful of the time Ryan and I put into what we do.

last edited by Guest

@joshuabrooks no way, never give up the pro/con Gush debate - now we just re-litigate how much better the format would be with Gush vs how much worse it would be with Gush forever and that will really be fun /s

As a shops player, I'm sad because shops was good against gush. However, I'm happy because I LOVE traditional bomberman and this may open up a up the door for paradoxical or TFK bomberman decks.

@Naixin said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

As a shops player, I'm sad because shops was good against gush. However, I'm happy because I LOVE traditional bomberman and this may open up a up the door for paradoxical or TFK bomberman decks.

It's tough to justify not just playing Mentor in a non-Oath Salvagers combo deck. It's pretty good on it's own with Tops, they're all Humans and then if you have the combo you don't even need a spellbomb, you just have infinite whites.

last edited by nedleeds

Next time I play Vintage, Mishra's Workshop will be restricted.

Maybe some day in the future, people won't constantly bitch about the B&R list and Wizards will have to make an evidence-based decision.

last edited by wappla

@nedleeds I would play mentor. Have a spell bomb or mentor as the win con with salvagers. Maybe even a tasigur.

An amusing realization just came to me, and this isn't meant with any sort of bitterness...I haven't had the opportunity to play since the announcement, but prior to it I was playing a BUG deck with Gush and Leovold and my record with it was fine, but without Gush I have very little incentive to keep playing that deck. I only just now realized that the next most interesting deck, to me at least, is Mentor. So this announcement will actually push me into playing Mentor.

This is why we need tangle wire and thorn restricted. Tangle wire into tangle wire? 4 copies of thorn that could end your game for two mana? 9 sphere effects that are just about a must counter. Are you kidding me? 9 sphere effect cannot be balanced for the game. Just because there's 8 sphere effects does not mean that they shouldn't be restricted.

last edited by caleb

I'm afraid to say we've reached the point where we have to restrict Sudden Shock. An uncounterable spell that can potentially end the game for 2 mana has no place in Vintage.

Shops was half the daily cashes last night. Rich Shay, who spent the better part of the last year using his celebrity to moan about Gush homogenizing blue decks, played Stax.

No one made the argument that restricting Gush would hurt Workshops more vocally than Mr Shay, and yet a day after the announcement, he is playing Workshops. The gross hypocrisy aside, this once again illustrates how idiotic the argument against Gush was. It took the very person saying restricting Gush would hurt Workshops a full 24 hours before registering Workshops. Just amazing...

last edited by wappla
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