April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy

I'm not a fan of restricting Gush but I understand why it was done. I'm glad Probe
is gone though.

Ding dong the Witch is dead. Maybe we can play some other draw engines now.

Also Ill be the first to start the free Fastbond and Scroll campaign.

Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh lawwwwwwwd
Ban Top
Restrict Gush Probe
Don't touch Felidar Guardian in standard....

Sometimes I really question the thought process

@boxian One of the most broken aspects of Gush is that it functions as a mana source...If you have no additional lands in your hand, you Gush and replay a land, generating an extra mana. This is a huge advantage against other Blue decks as you are essentially replacing Moxen with a free draw 2 (look at most mentor decks which just ran on color Moxen). At the same time, a single sphere effect negates this advantage and turns Gush into a mana neutral spell. A second sphere makes it mana negative. The logic isn't that Shops will play less spheres but that the mana bases of other decks will expand as they can't rely on Gush.

@ChubbyRain said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@boxian One of the most broken aspects of Gush is that it functions as a mana source...If you have no additional lands in your hand, you Gush and replay a land, generating an extra mana. This is a huge advantage against other Blue decks as you are essentially replacing Moxen with a free draw 2 (look at most mentor decks which just ran on color Moxen). At the same time, a single sphere effect negates this advantage and turns Gush into a mana neutral spell. A second sphere makes it mana negative. The logic isn't that Shops will play less spheres but that the mana bases of other decks will expand as they can't rely on Gush.

Wouldn't that line of thinking lead to - remove 3 gush, add 3 mana sources. What did we do to the decks really?

@Khahan Sounds like such a change would be good against Shops, no? People advocating changing Gush into spells that cast mana are misunderstanding the effect Gush had on deck construction

@ChubbyRain said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@Khahan Sounds like such a change would be good against Shops, no? People advocating changing Gush into spells that cast mana are misunderstanding the effect Gush had on deck construction

Ok, what did we really do to the meta game should be the question. If the answer to how gush's restriction affects gush decks is that we have to put more mana sources (lands mostly) into the deck then what really changed? We are already talking about the 'new metagame' as if we are running mentor decks with more mana in them instead of more draw. So what changed?

The biggest thing that changed is that people who had a biased opinioned on the matter and kept classifying any and every deck that had a gush in it as a 'gush' deck will find out that they affected no real change in the metagame. We'll find out that Mentor is the oppressive beast in the room that kills other strategies and decks from being created.

Now, if the change to a restricted gush actually helps spawn new decks that rely on different win-cons and we see some true innovations then we'll find that the people who have been witch-hunting gush were right.

My prediction for the meta is the former rather than the latter.

@Khahan said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

The biggest thing that changed is that people who had a biased opinioned on the matter and kept classifying any and every deck that had a gush in it as a 'gush' deck will find out that they affected no real change in the metagame. We'll find out that Mentor is the oppressive beast in the room that kills other strategies and decks from being created.

It does not seem absurd to me to classify decks containing 3 or more Gush as "Gush" decks. Especially when you consider that historically Vintage decks have been classified into pillars based on card names...Shops, Dredge, Rituals, Rods, Drains. If you have a better system, I would encourage you to conduct your own metagame analyses based on whatever classification scheme you prefer.

Now, if the change to a restricted gush actually helps spawn new decks that rely on different win-cons and we see some true innovations then we'll find that the people who have been witch-hunting gush were right.

My prediction for the meta is the former rather than the latter.

We will see. I have a bunch of decks I intend to stream on MTGO. Hopefully, that will demonstrate the latter.

Wow, didn't expect Top getting the ban hammer but it does makes sense...
Probe is restricted? I was honestly hoping and expecting Misstep to be restricted instead of Probe

I'm interested to see opening lines of play less perfunctory than "probe, go."

Finally I can take that gush oath deck apart...

@Islandswamp said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

Finally I can take that gush oath deck apart...

It's funny, I have a small proxied-up "vintage gauntlet" I keep around for fun/testing, and I'm realizing virtually every single deck runs bunches of Probes and Gushes. Should have been a sign hahah

@jimmycolorado The ONLY reason I built a Gush Oath deck was that playing my own Gushes was the only way to consistently stay at or around card parity with Mentor/Pyromancer/Gush.DEC

The addition of Gush made the deck worse against its best matchups. I'm not sad to make that change. Well, perhaps a little bit, I did like drawing cards.

Urza's Bauble -> Cabal Therapy. Taste the skill.

I don't have any issues with these restrictions (happy to see probe go), but I am curious about the wording: "metagame has come to a bit of a standstill."

This doesn't seem like great reasoning for a restriction. Especially for a format that is not monitored by DCI.

last edited by joshuabrooks

People seriously undervalue how great the difference between -2 life and 1 mana is because in the Team Serious chat, Jimmy McCarthy was joking about Peek as well. You have the IQ of a Banana if you can't really see why Gitaxian Probe is amazing and Peek dogshit.

@MSolymossy can you REALLY not find a better argument for why the card is worse than Probe? I don't think Peek is any good either, but "dogshit banana" isn't convincing anyone.

@Brass-Man said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@MSolymossy can you REALLY not find a better argument for why the card is worse than Probe? I don't think Peek is any good either, but "dogshit banana" isn't convincing anyone.

It's making me oddly hungry though.

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