April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy

@hyperborea "So Wasteland may be a thing again?".

What the fuck format have you been playing, Momir Basic?!

Wow, I did not expect this.

@MSolymossy I mean it'll be a bigger thing.

@Hrishi I expected maybe one or the other but not both. Glad they didn't hit Monastery Mentor the card specifically though.

Let's all celebrate by putting Dark Confidants into our decks!

@desolutionist Ballista is still a main-deck four-of, let's not go crazy here.

@Prospero but DC draws Ballista for 0 life, what value

@Prospero

And Sphere was a maindeck 9 of; that didn't stop people from playing Gush, Probe, Misstep 😜

So, I think I'm missing a step in their logic. I understand their statement to mean:

  1. Mentor is powerful because it casts lots of spells and gains value from those spells
  2. Shops is the natural enemy because it limits spells
  3. Mentor is made more powerful by casting more free spells
  4. Shops counters with tax effects, which also limit the rest of the metagame
  5. Therefore, Removing (at least) 6 copies of free spells from Mentor decks will
    (a) weaken Mentor decks
    (b) reduce the inclination for Shops decks to play tax effects

My sticking point is 5b - why wouldn't Shops maintain an effectively same count for tax effects which will now be more powerful against Mentor (as they are replacing free spells with spells that cost mana) and continue to shut down the other decks in the metagame.

I'm unwilling to say it was a bad call, but I'm interested in diving into the thought process here because they actively stopped Shops from playing tax effects when they restricted golem to allow for more spells and the metagame has still become Policeman vs Spellslinger, so now weakening the Spellslinger should lead to the Policeman fewer tax effects than the effective ones the deck was using before and I find that counter-intuitive. It just sounds like they've set up the format to be wholly dominated by Shops again.

edit: I also wish that they let someone off the restricted list because I view it generally as a prisoner exchange system, but at the same time, I can respect the willingness to only make one change at a time.

last edited by boxian

@Brass-Man

I was previously calm and only now I'm upset! I felt the format was doing fine, and these restrictions are unnecessary. I see no need to weaken mentor decks when shops is just as powerful or even more powerful than mentor. I don't believe Sphere effects needed help, and I don't believe these restrictions will "Open up the metagame".

Perfect. Just amazing. What a great day for Vintage.

@boxian said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

(b) reduce the inclination for Shops decks to play tax effects

This is not their logic. Their logic is that people will have to stop playing shitty manabases now that they can't justify them with free spells.

@cutlex so "Hopefully the move away from "free" spells in the Mentor decks will lessen the impact of the Workshop deck's various Sphere of Resistance effects, opening up the metagame."

is actually "play more lands dumb dumbs"?

See, I knew I was missing something! Thanks

I'm not a fan of restricting Gush but I understand why it was done. I'm glad Probe
is gone though.

Ding dong the Witch is dead. Maybe we can play some other draw engines now.

Also Ill be the first to start the free Fastbond and Scroll campaign.

Hahahahahahahahaha
Oh lawwwwwwwd
Ban Top
Restrict Gush Probe
Don't touch Felidar Guardian in standard....

Sometimes I really question the thought process

@boxian One of the most broken aspects of Gush is that it functions as a mana source...If you have no additional lands in your hand, you Gush and replay a land, generating an extra mana. This is a huge advantage against other Blue decks as you are essentially replacing Moxen with a free draw 2 (look at most mentor decks which just ran on color Moxen). At the same time, a single sphere effect negates this advantage and turns Gush into a mana neutral spell. A second sphere makes it mana negative. The logic isn't that Shops will play less spheres but that the mana bases of other decks will expand as they can't rely on Gush.

@ChubbyRain said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@boxian One of the most broken aspects of Gush is that it functions as a mana source...If you have no additional lands in your hand, you Gush and replay a land, generating an extra mana. This is a huge advantage against other Blue decks as you are essentially replacing Moxen with a free draw 2 (look at most mentor decks which just ran on color Moxen). At the same time, a single sphere effect negates this advantage and turns Gush into a mana neutral spell. A second sphere makes it mana negative. The logic isn't that Shops will play less spheres but that the mana bases of other decks will expand as they can't rely on Gush.

Wouldn't that line of thinking lead to - remove 3 gush, add 3 mana sources. What did we do to the decks really?

@Khahan Sounds like such a change would be good against Shops, no? People advocating changing Gush into spells that cast mana are misunderstanding the effect Gush had on deck construction

@ChubbyRain said in April 24th, 2017 Banned and Restricted update: GUSH AND PROBE/TOP in Legacy:

@Khahan Sounds like such a change would be good against Shops, no? People advocating changing Gush into spells that cast mana are misunderstanding the effect Gush had on deck construction

Ok, what did we really do to the meta game should be the question. If the answer to how gush's restriction affects gush decks is that we have to put more mana sources (lands mostly) into the deck then what really changed? We are already talking about the 'new metagame' as if we are running mentor decks with more mana in them instead of more draw. So what changed?

The biggest thing that changed is that people who had a biased opinioned on the matter and kept classifying any and every deck that had a gush in it as a 'gush' deck will find out that they affected no real change in the metagame. We'll find out that Mentor is the oppressive beast in the room that kills other strategies and decks from being created.

Now, if the change to a restricted gush actually helps spawn new decks that rely on different win-cons and we see some true innovations then we'll find that the people who have been witch-hunting gush were right.

My prediction for the meta is the former rather than the latter.

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