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Author Topic: Sound Off: How many of you will be playing Vintage online?  (Read 8621 times)
President Skroob
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« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2012, 03:11:45 PM »

Meth here are wrong.

Not even once.
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« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2012, 05:58:59 PM »

I do plan on playing Vintage on MTGO.

Hopefully I can do some trading, borrowing, etc for the FoW I'll need to play the decks I want to play, but I'll play it regardless. I'm trying to finish my paper power by GenCon so I'm not doing this to replace paper, but in addition.
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« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2012, 08:21:55 PM »

I'll be playing online.  I've been waiting for years for this to happen.  I still don't really understand the complaints people have about the interface.  I think it works quite well.  There are issues, but that's true of every game I have ever played. 
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« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2012, 10:15:58 PM »

I won't be playing online because, without the social aspect of the game, it gets kinda boring for me.

Online play can actually be more social than you might think.  It's a pretty tight-knit group that plays Classic currently, and I've gotten to know a lot of the players pretty well through chats, listening to podcasts, reading tourney coverage, etc.  One nice thing is being able to block the few bad apples so you don't have to deal with them (unless you get matched up in a tourney, in which case, you can just ignore their chats and make your plays).  In real life, there's no avoiding them.  As a former Vintage tourney player who was hesitant to join MTGO, I can now say I would much rather play online.  MTGO may not attract as many Vintage players that currently participate in active Vintage communities, but that number is very limited geographically.  I strongly encourage those who have geographic or time limitations to give MTGO a shot.  For both reasons, I personally haven't been able to play in a paper tournament in years.

In the following link, Pete Jahn lays out several advantages MTGO has over paper:
http://puremtgo.com/articles/ten-reasons-why-mtgo-better-real-life-magic
To be fair, he also covers 10 things he feels make paper better in another article, but this does lay out some of the advantages to MTGO.  My favorites include the shuffler, timer, and rules engine.  The biggest advantage though is just the availability of a game whenever you want to play.
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« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2012, 07:20:58 PM »

I'm fairly "bought in" in terms of magic online.  As long as Force of Will goes down in price, I'd play
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« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2012, 08:01:16 PM »

I won't be playing online (except using Cockatrice for testing). If I wanted to spend more money on Vintage staples, I'd much rather get duplicate physical copies so I can have more decks built at the same time. Paying hundreds of dollars just for the privilege of using a crappy interface, losing the social aspect of the game, and being at the mercy of Wizards to even use the virtual cards doesn't seem like money well spent. The criticisms Jenni and Norm4eva bring up regarding the terms of service are deal breakers for me. I might give it a try if it were way less expensive and/or structured differently. I'd happily pay a reasonable monthly fee to play Vintage online if I didn't have to collect/buy the virtual cards individually. Collecting virtual cards that vanish when Wizards decides to mess with my account or stop supporting the game seems ridiculous.

That said, I hope that coming of Power to MODO will create a resurgence of interest in real Vintage.
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Samite Healer
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« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2012, 08:18:52 PM »

Even if they gave me every single card for free to build any Vintage deck, I wouldn't play online.  I just don't enjoy playing on the computer because the fundamental social activity is missing.  I am glad that it will be available for those who want to play online though.
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« Reply #37 on: December 10, 2012, 03:23:56 AM »

I have a MTGO account and have never used it, the day they announce real vintage on MTGO I'll buy what ever it takes to have the deck I want. I'm actually wondering now if I should start buying the staples like Workshops / Bazaar's now before the announcement .
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« Reply #38 on: December 10, 2012, 09:45:20 AM »

I have an old MTGO account so I'll probably dabble in some online vintage.
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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2012, 03:10:46 AM »

Terms of service?  Really?  What is the chance of wizards randomly deciding to shut your account down compared to your cards being stolen by some punk kid? It's not even close.  If they actually started to do this, it would send the market into a nose dive and everyone would stop playing.  For some reason I don't really expect them to decide to flush millions of dollars down the toilet. 
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« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2012, 04:05:55 PM »

I have written a piece over on PureMTGO concerning the costs of playing Vintage online.  It's not a buyer's guide, per say, but there are a large number of price comparisons for those interested.  I think some people here will be surprised by the results and perhaps the conclusions.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2012, 05:11:02 PM »

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Thankfully, few cited the price of Force of Will as the sole detriment to entry, that red herring of an excuse to put aside the entire eternal online experience. I'm not going to waste a lot of time on this, but it was nice that the thread didn't devolve into bickering over the one card (take note, denizens of forums dedicated to online play). Perhaps that is because there would something massively hypocritical about people complaining about the price of a card online being $100 when something like 20 cards in their paper deck cost more than that.

This is NOT a red herring.  I own a huge swath of Vintage staples on MODO, but REFUSE to spend $100 to buy Force of Wills online.   

I will not pay $100, on principle, for electronic cards that can be reprinted any time when there is no reserved list.  That's absurd. 
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« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2012, 05:25:43 PM »

This is NOT a red herring.  I own a huge swath of Vintage staples on MODO, but REFUSE to spend $100 to buy Force of Wills online.  

I will not pay $100, on principle, for electronic cards that can be reprinted any time when there is no reserved list.  That's absurd.  

Once you start attributing any value to cards online at all, you can feel free to draw any arbitary line in the sand you wish.

Just don't be surprised when your line doesn't match up with other people's lines, or WoTCs.  

My guess is you won't be playing blue, Steve. I certainly hope I'm wrong though.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 05:30:33 PM by dangerlinto » Logged
Smmenen
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« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2012, 05:41:27 PM »

No, I will simply relentlessly advocate and push for Wizards to reprint Force of Wills.  

The entire point of Vintage on MTGO, as I see it, is to dramatically and radically lower the barrier to entry to enjoying Vintage.

That can't be accomplished when Force of Wills are $100.    That defeats the entire purpose of MTGO Vintage.  

Ideally, Vintage would be the cheapest format to play on MTGO.  

Elaboration of last point:

If prices are function of supply and demand, and supply is or can be made constant accross formats, one would expand greatest demand for Standard, since it is the most popular paper format.  

Therefore, Vintage could be either the least or among the least expensive, despite sharing staples with Legacy/Commander/Cube.  

The point or potential of MTGO is to allow the formats to compete on an even, level playing field.   When Vintage staples like FOW cost $100, that defeats any point of playing MTGO at all.   Having a marginally cheaper format is not the same as having a broadly accessible format.   That's what Vintage online should be.   There is no reserved list.   That's a good thing.    I hope Black Lotus costs $2, just so people can easily access Vintage on MTGO.  

EDIT: I was offended when you said it was "hypocritical" for Vintage players to complain about the prices of MTGO cards.   That's simply untrue.  It's only hypocritical if its inconsistent with my stance in the real world.   I  have long complained about the accessibility of Vintage in real life, and have long advocated for the abolition of the reserved list and reprinting of Vintage staples. 
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 05:59:08 PM by Smmenen » Logged

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« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2012, 06:07:01 PM »

No, I will simply relentlessly advocate and push for Wizards to reprint Force of Wills.  

The entire point of Vintage on MTGO, as I see it, is to dramatically and radically lower the barrier to entry to enjoying Vintage.

That can't be accomplished when Force of Wills are $100.    That defeats the entire purpose of MTGO Vintage.  

Ideally, Vintage would be the cheapest format to play on MTGO.  

Elaboration of last point:

If prices are function of supply and demand, and supply is or can be made constant accross formats, one would expand greatest demand for Standard, since it is the most popular paper format.  

Therefore, Vintage could be either the least or among the least expensive, despite sharing staples with Legacy/Commander/Cube.  

The point or potential of MTGO is to allow the formats to compete on an even, level playing field.   When Vintage staples like FOW cost $100, that defeats any point of playing MTGO at all.   Having a marginally cheaper format is not the same as having a broadly accessible format.   That's what Vintage online should be.   There is no reserved list.   That's a good thing.    I hope Black Lotus costs $2, just so people can easily access Vintage on MTGO.  

If prices are a function of supply and demand, won't all the extra supply and demand automatically cause an upward surge of all cards used in force of will decks?   In place of Force of Will, you will uplift Jace, the Mind Sculptor.  And once they reprint that, some other card will rise up.

Prices might be a function of supply and demand, but none of them are isolated system.  Hence the whole point of the article.  You can't lower the price of just one card by raising supply and also hope that the same model won't magically apply to all the other cards, unless the function of the price of the card is NOT merely supply and demand.  Which is probably the case to a degree, because I suspect some of the function of the prices is probably related to specualted value, which would deflate upon reprinting (one would think).

However - the point stands - you can petition WoTC all you like Steve.  You'll be #13607 on their list of people who've done so.  Good luck to you.  But even upon success, the health of online Vintage play is NOT rooted entirely in the price of one card - it is rooted in the whole.  

Because a deck of 56 islands and 4 Force of Will sucks.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 06:10:13 PM by dangerlinto » Logged
Smmenen
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« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2012, 06:09:14 PM »

Yeah -- so what you do is just continue to reprint staples as the prices rise.   It's not that hard.  They can do it at the push of a button.  

It all goes back to the goal of the format online: broad accessibility for Vintage.

If Vintage is just going to be a niche format online, then there is no point to it.   I'd just stick with the paper format.  

They should and could reprint cards as much as they want to promote accessibility.  
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« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2012, 06:18:36 PM »

Yeah -- so what you do is just continue to reprint staples as the prices rise.   It's not that hard.  They can do it at the push of a button.  

It all goes back to the goal of the format online: broad accessibility for Vintage.

If Vintage is just going to be a niche format online, then there is no point to it.   I'd just stick with the paper format.  

They should and could reprint cards as much as they want to promote accessibility.  

Well, if you are in the "please make everything cheaper" crowd, you're free to hold up a banner and picket the WoTC offices.  Good luck to you.
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Smmenen
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« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2012, 06:25:08 PM »

 I guess the question is, if the goal is to promote Vintage in either format, who wouldn't be in that crowd?

Let's look at the history of the format.  the entire reason they created other formats and the reason they created the reserved list out of that schism was because of the underprinted of early sets and staples.

The price of Force clearly indicates that Force of Will is underprinted since it was printed in one of the earliest printings, and has not been reprinted since.  Since there is no reserved list, it makes total sense to simply reprint it.

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« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2012, 06:34:23 PM »

I guess the question is, if the goal is to promote Vintage in either format, who wouldn't be in that crowd?

Actually, I think everyone is in that crowd.  regardless of format or medium.  Who doesn't want things to be cheaper?  That's the point though - when have cries of "make it cheaper" ever fallen on anything but deaf ears?

I'm all for reprinting Force of Will.  Of course, without being too pessimistic, it would probably end up as a Mythic in packs that cost $6.99 and not really drive the price down all that much, only to watch it rise later on, to be repepeated by the same cries of "make it cheaper!"

Because if I was WoTC, that's what I'd do.

And PS - "has not been reprinted since" is a bit of misnomer.  MED1 Packs could be opened in unlimited amounts just a couple of weeks ago.  Of course, the price was you had to also pay for an MED2, 3 & 4 pack and you paid a small premium to do so while drafting, but they were there.  The price went down, then went right back up. Which is really exhibit A of what I'm talking about above.

So to recap - I'm really happy if things get cheaper.  I hope WoTC does make them so, but it doesn't seem to be in the make-up of the entire MO for WoTC pertaining to Magic.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2012, 06:38:44 PM by dangerlinto » Logged
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« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2012, 12:56:06 AM »

As an online-only player for a few years now, I encourage you guys to come on board!  I haven't been very active lately, but I'll be back for Vintage - probably before that, actually.  MTGO is more social than you think if you get involved in message boards, articles, podcasts, clans, player-run tournaments, and the like.  I tend to know the real names behind every screen name I play, know what type of deck they prefer, and even know something about their personal lives. 

Stephen, I respect your opinions on Vintage so much, but MTGO's economy is a complex beast.  It is absolutely not as simple as WOTC "pressing a button."  The whims of the players determine the prices, and even if WOTC did press that button to reduce prices, they would self-correct over time.

Wizards has to make money off the packs they sell and the events they run.  In eternal formats, they need the cards to be expensive for that to happen.  Whenever, for example, Tempest block drafts come around (old format drafts are available online from time to time), players flock to them because of the chance to open a $30 Wasteland, $7 Lotus Petal, or an $11 Intuition.  If Wizards were to reprint these cards into oblivion, the occasional week of drafts wouldn't fire (just look up the complaints of the non-profitable OLS drafts earlier this year - online players don't draft these sets for the fun of it, they draft for the EV).  So they couldn't run the drafts and the prices of cards would creep up.   

Leaving the cards always available isn't an option either.  Non-standard draft formats live by the temporary excitement they produce.  In 2010 and 2011, Urza block drafts were available for almost a year.  They got to the point where you could sit in the queue by yourself for an hour and no one else would join.  This even with $10 rares and $1 commons to open.  It just wasn't an exciting or promoted format.  It was just there. 

I'm 100% with you that they should reprint Force of Will (they currently are not because of a "promise" they made in a long-lost message board post not to reprint it in a Masters Edition set).  Hopefully it will be in whatever set the Power 9 are in.  But like Danger said, Master's Edition 1 packs have been available in drafts for a week or two a year, and even with another hundred or so entering the system during those weeks, its price does not fluctuate.  It really does need to be in a set that is available for an extended length of time.     

Sorry, I got into some nitty-gritty jargon-y MTGO details, but I just wanted to explain that it is a real economy with real value to the digital things you buy.  It's got all the ups and downs of any market and nobody, not even WOTC, has full control of it. 

But I hope you guys will join up and explore it on your own.  We've got a great Classic community and we've been waiting for years to turn it into a Vintage community.  More players means more events firing and more notice from WOTC and a more exciting experience all around.

And, yes, now is the time to buy in.  Prices online change fast.  If Vintage gets any sort of buzz or popularity, all of these cards will shoot up. 

And if you're still hung up on the price of Force of Will, just look at any other Vintage staple and see how much you're coming out ahead.  $15 Mishra's Workshops, $18 Mana Drains, $3 Time Vaults.
And if you're still not cool with one expensive card, just look at the Classic players who play with exclusively foil decks ($295 Force of Wills).
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« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2012, 12:27:59 PM »

I guess the question is, if the goal is to promote Vintage in either format, who wouldn't be in that crowd?
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It all goes back to the goal of the format online: broad accessibility for Vintage.
Who's goal is that?  Wotc isn't really interested in Vintage. Be it paper or digital.  Look at the facts.  Percentage-wise almost nobody plays the format.  The reserved list says "we will never reprint staples", the heart and soul of said format.  You can't have a prosperous Vintage format without the cards on the reserved list.  They know this.  Wotc policy dictates that they don't support the Vintage format.  They can say "we will support Vintage online" but that is ridiculous.  Look at what they do, not what they say.

They didn't decide to print online moxen to stimulate the format, they decided to print online moxen because they could.  It's a business and businesses like to make money.  The reserved list doesn't apply to bits and bytes, so some nerd can't sue them for destroying the value of his Dwarven Pony.

Why should they support Vintage?  Like any good company, they want to put a product on the market that's the best it can be.  With the reserved list (for whatever reason) you can't put out the best possible product.  Why not focus on Standard instead?  This is a format that they have complete control over.  It's a format they can make enjoyable, balanced, and widely accessible.  Sure, they throw the Vintage crowd a bone once in a while, but only because it means slightly more money.

It's totally understandable, depressing, and logical that they print online moxen.  Just because they can.  I love Vintage but if I worked for wotc, it wouldn't make sense to me to support it.  

Go ahead Vintage zealots, buy online cards. Have fun playing in a format that the company can never support 100%.  Cut your teeth on a new format. Chop your breakfast on a mirror.

Quote
I'm 100% with you that they should reprint Force of Will (they currently are not because of a "promise" they made in a long-lost message board post not to reprint it in a Masters Edition set).
 
Smells like a reserved list to me.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2012, 12:42:51 PM by Methuselahn » Logged

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« Reply #51 on: December 13, 2012, 12:34:00 PM »

Smells like a reserved list to me.

It sort of is.  The actual promise is not to put it in another MED.  If tomorrow FoW was in a duel deck (it's not like it's reserved in paper) it's not like MTGO wouldn't offer that duel deck.
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« Reply #52 on: December 13, 2012, 08:53:11 PM »

wizards of the coast: let's put more content online and give people more ways to play their favorite format, cheaper, at any time of the day!
magic players: WTF force of will is too expensive! 
magic players: what if they confiscate my collection?
magic players: the barrier of entry is too high!
wizards of the coast: thanks for the feedback.  (Writes note "ignore these idiots for ten more years.  They are clearly not ready for attention yet.")


 
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« Reply #53 on: December 14, 2012, 03:32:42 AM »

I use MODO regularly and I will definitely be playing Vintage when it becomes available. I guess I am one of the few people that really likes the MODO interface. I only see positives for Vintage by bringing it to MODO.
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« Reply #54 on: December 14, 2012, 07:28:41 AM »

There is a barrier to entry for me, in addition to buying the cards, that I'd have to buy a new computer.  No way I could see 1 GHz of RAM and an Atom processor running that chunky of a program.
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« Reply #55 on: December 14, 2012, 11:22:56 AM »

An interesting read, I'll just drop this off here:

http://puremtgo.com/articles/state-program-december-14-2012
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« Reply #56 on: December 17, 2012, 04:44:22 AM »

I would play it. I am on MTGO just for Pauper and the occasional limited, but if Vintage was available and accessible (i.e. would not require me spending thousands of Dollars to play it) i would defintely play it.
 
I do not like Legacy nor Modern. I think that MTGO Vintage would be the only way to revitalize a bit the paper Vintage world attracing maybe some players if the format would get some type of sponsorship from WotC.
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« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2012, 01:21:02 AM »

well, force of will was just announced as the January MOCS promo, and the structure of MOCS has been changed so that more promos will be released.  Up to 4000 copies could be released in January if all the prelims full up, but a more realistic number is 1-2k.
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« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2012, 01:59:45 AM »

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/feature/226b

Pretty happy about this. 
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« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2012, 09:21:54 AM »

well, force of will was just announced as the January MOCS promo, and the structure of MOCS has been changed so that more promos will be released.  Up to 4000 copies could be released in January if all the prelims full up, but a more realistic number is 1-2k.

Totally awesome.

Buy your Jace, TMS now. Smile
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