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Author Topic: Revealing your opponent cards  (Read 3322 times)
Wagner
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« on: October 30, 2012, 06:07:04 AM »

I'm wondering if there is anything that prevents you from "accidentaly" dropping and thus showing certains cards of your deck while shuffling to influence how your opponent will take mulligans.

I'm pretty sure there is no ruling that says you can't show an opponent your deck before the game, or your hand during the game, but is there one that says you can't if the intention is to gain advantage from it?
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bactgudz
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« Reply #1 on: October 30, 2012, 04:02:56 PM »

MTR 3.12 Hidden Information

Hidden information refers to the faces of cards and other objects at which the rules of the game and format do not allow you to look.

Throughout the match, a draft, and pregame procedures, players are responsible for keeping their cards above the level of the playing surface and for making reasonable efforts to prevent hidden information from being revealed. However, players may choose to reveal their hands or any other hidden information available only to them, unless specifically prohibited by the rules. Players must not actively attempt to gain information hidden from them.

So revealing your hand to opponent=ok...intentionally revealing deck while you are shuffling and not searching=not ok since this is not hidden information available to you.
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Wagner
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« Reply #2 on: October 30, 2012, 05:09:21 PM »

I understand the importance not to flip cards during the match, but is the content of your own deck before the match has started really be considered hidden information to you?
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bactgudz
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« Reply #3 on: October 30, 2012, 09:30:25 PM »

I understand the importance not to flip cards during the match, but is the content of your own deck before the match has started really be considered hidden information to you?

Technically, pregame sideboarding and shuffling are 2 distinct steps in the pregame procedures, but they can be repeated.  Presumably while in the act of sideboarding it's not hidden to you, and when shuffling it is (since you shouldn't know the card faces of randomized cards).  I would be careful about intentionally revealing randomized cards in a deck while actually shuffling, since this same act (while it could be done to trick an opponent) also facilitates you cheating by actively attempting to gain hidden information (the identity of a randomized card in the deck).   However, there is nothing preventing you from executing any number of the following steps:
1) putting or "dropping" a card face up on the table while sideboarding
2) placing that card on top of your deck
3) shuffling
4) stop shuffling, and begin sideboarding again.
5) shuffle again

If you wanted to do it before the match starts before game 1, I think you'd again be ok, if you "dropped" something while looking through your deck before shuffling, but tracking a card while you're actually shuffling for pregame procedures in order to intentionally drop it is probably not a good idea.

To put it simply: if a judge sees you do this when you are allowed to be looking at your deck, you're ok...if a judge sees you shuffling and it is obvious to him that you are tracking a card or trying to glimpse what a particular card is while shuffling it's not ok, even if you use the excuse "I wanted to intentionally drop it".
« Last Edit: October 30, 2012, 09:54:44 PM by bactgudz » Logged
RichardD
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« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2012, 03:15:13 AM »

If you really want your opponent to know what you're playing, then I suggest this;

Have your deck in a deckbox with a keycard facing towards the outside(s).
Wait until your opponent arrives at the table before taking the deck out of the box.
Make sure your opponent is watching when you take the deck out of the box.

You've now shown them which deck you could possibly be playing without breaking any real rules.


I must say that I can't really think of why you'd like to do this, and I can't really encourage you doing this.
However, as a judge at a tournament, I also can't stop you from doing this, thus I wouldn't punish you if I saw you doing this.
Though, if I were to figure out you'd be trying to gain extra advantage by showing your opponent your deck (which I don't really understand how this could be to your advantage), then I'd probably talk to you about what this game is about.
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Wagner
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« Reply #5 on: November 02, 2012, 04:20:28 AM »

Worry not, I have no intention of doing any of this, but I saw a current tread on here that discussed using Stinkweed Imp in a Red-Black shell. I figured since that card is only used in Dredge, your opponent would most likely assume you're playing Dredge if he sees only that card, and mulligan accordingly, thus giving you an advantage.
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2012, 09:49:44 PM »

Worry not, I have no intention of doing any of this, but I saw a current tread on here that discussed using Stinkweed Imp in a Red-Black shell. I figured since that card is only used in Dredge, your opponent would most likely assume you're playing Dredge if he sees only that card, and mulligan accordingly, thus giving you an advantage.

That seems a bit sneaky, but I guess legal.  I assume you're referring to my R/B beats deck (I've not heard of any other R/B shell using stinkweeds).  Regardless of your pregame tactics, if you do use it in a tourney, let me know how it plays out!  I'd think what you suggest doing is similar to just telling your opponent "I'm playing dredge."  They then have to believe you or not and make decisions based on that info.
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"I know to whom I owe the most loyalty, and I see him in the mirror every day." - Starke of Rath
Wagner
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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2012, 04:54:48 PM »

Yes, it was regarding your deck, but no, I won't try it out, I barely play anymore and I'm pretty sure I don't even own Stinkweed Imps, so Razz
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