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Author Topic: Merfolk  (Read 6538 times)
vaughnbros
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« Reply #30 on: November 25, 2011, 04:03:44 PM »

Aether vial delays your creatures by 1 turn
I dont think i need to say anything more about aether vial.

Null Rod is clearly the best mana denial card, but mana denial is only great if it's backed up by pressure.
Merfolk are in fact creatures right?

As for the part about Standstill - what? How is it too slow in a deck that is supposed to be creating pressure early but not too slow in a deck whose threats are Mishra's Factory and Jace?
Again you just proved my point.  Standstill is not a good card for a deck trying to end the game early.
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Dr_Moo
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« Reply #31 on: December 06, 2011, 04:56:23 PM »

So, the idea is to pick sentence fragments out of context and make counterpoints that don't refute what I actually said? That seems like good discussion.
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bakofried
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« Reply #32 on: December 06, 2011, 07:01:04 PM »

I don't that's a fair evaluation of his post either. You said Null Rod is only strong when backed up by significant pressure - well, then this deck is a perfect fit then. And the point about Standstill is something which Legacy Folk learned roughly a year ago (though meta shifts warrant change, of course) and that is that this deck would rather have threats or disruption rather than a very conditional draw - 3. If people are dropping problem permanents on the first few turns (before you have time to cast Standstill) and your "out" to apply pressure against your opponent is a Mutavault, then you're in trouble. You can't rely on Aether Vial, it's simply not feasible.
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Dr_Moo
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« Reply #33 on: December 09, 2011, 09:38:49 PM »

What I have been saying is that Null Rod to some degree mitigates your ability to apply pressure because it takes up your entire turn to cast. It could well be that it's still the best card for the deck, but I don't think that point is irrelevant. 
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #34 on: December 10, 2011, 12:18:20 PM »

What I have been saying is that Null Rod to some degree mitigates your ability to apply pressure because it takes up your entire turn to cast. It could well be that it's still the best card for the deck, but I don't think that point is irrelevant. 


Just played a Vintage Merfolk on Cockatrice.  He was playing Rods, along with Reejeerys, Curse Catcher, and Adepts.  Submerge is really good in that deck.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #35 on: December 11, 2011, 10:45:58 AM »

If I was going to play merfolk, I would play mana artifacts over vial (very good with coralhelm commander) and back to basics over rod.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #36 on: December 11, 2011, 05:50:14 PM »

If I was going to play merfolk, I would play mana artifacts over vial (very good with coralhelm commander) and back to basics over rod.

not really sure why you would want back to basics when your mana base, strip effects, can achieve the same effect that it does.

mana artifacts dont seem that good with coralhelm you still need double blue to cast him.  the greatest beneficiaries of mana artifacts would probably be silvergil adept and rootwater thief, since both of them can then be cast on turn 1.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #37 on: December 12, 2011, 07:39:05 AM »

If I was going to play merfolk, I would play mana artifacts over vial (very good with coralhelm commander) and back to basics over rod.

not really sure why you would want back to basics when your mana base, strip effects, can achieve the same effect that it does.


Because Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Ghost Quarter slow down your mana development which is important with plenty of cards with {U} {U} in their mana cost.  Playing 4 Force, 4 Misstep, and 4 Daze is enough free counters to keep most decks off balance.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #38 on: December 12, 2011, 02:15:00 PM »

First, rootwater thief is garbage.

Troy has the main point. Let me add that strip effects are one for one, back to basics is card advantage. Obligatory it can be pitched to force comment as well.

Mana artifacts let you reliably cast tinker. 

And mana artifacts power out back to basics.

If you have never played with back to basics I would. You will see that wasteland cannot achieve the same effect.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #39 on: December 12, 2011, 03:37:25 PM »

As best as I can piece it together, here is what I played against the other day:

4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
3 Silvergill Adept
4 Cursecatcher

4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Mental Misstep

4 Back to Basics

1 Tinker
1 Blightsteel Colossus
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Brainstorm
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Merchant Scroll

1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Ruby
1 Mox Emerald
1 Black Lotus

4 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
8 Island

Sideboard:

2 Repeal
1 Hurkyl's Recall
2 Energy Flux
4 Phantasmal Image
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Toromod's Crypt
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2011, 04:15:21 PM »

Seems like a good start, but I would definitely cut a daze for a silvergil and a fetch for a manacrypt.

I wonder if 16 is too few creatures, many lists run 20 and mutavault.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2011, 04:20:24 PM »

Seems like a good start, but I would definitely cut a daze for a silvergil and a fetch for a manacrypt.

I wonder if 16 is too few creatures, many lists run 20 and mutavault.

Yeah, I wouldn't take that list as anything but a best guess.  I definately think Mutavault is ismportant (since you can untap it with Rejeery).  I also don't think a 4 Null Rod/4 Back to Basics plan is necessarily a bad thing.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2011, 04:28:36 PM »

The chalice at zero / vial plan of old the worse than fish deck could be an option too.

Given your rough list I would want to try cutting tinker, bsc, and a back to basics for 3 riptide cutpurses or coralhelm commanders. That would give 3 more creatures. Without mystical tutor I wonder how often you will draw tinker before BSC.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2011, 05:07:44 PM »

First, rootwater thief is garbage.

Troy has the main point. Let me add that strip effects are one for one, back to basics is card advantage. Obligatory it can be pitched to force comment as well.

Mana artifacts let you reliably cast tinker. 

And mana artifacts power out back to basics.

If you have never played with back to basics I would. You will see that wasteland cannot achieve the same effect.

First, saying something is garbage without any argument to back it up shows your ignorance.  Rootwater thief is literally the best card in the deck against big blue, usually 3 activations max and the game is over.

Second, this is a fish deck since when have they wanted tinker? please refer to landstill for the reason why this is stupid.

Third, i would argue that back to basics cant achieve what wasteland can.  Can back to basics beat a first turn trinisphere? Can back to basics keep your opponent on 1 land so they cant gush?  Does back to basics stop dredge from fatestitching their bazaar?  Does back to basics say can't be countered?  On top of all this wasteland doesn't require actual slots of your deck its just part of your mana base.

If I was going to play merfolk, I would play mana artifacts over vial (very good with coralhelm commander) and back to basics over rod.

not really sure why you would want back to basics when your mana base, strip effects, can achieve the same effect that it does.


Because Wasteland, Strip Mine, and Ghost Quarter slow down your mana development which is important with plenty of cards with {U} {U} in their mana cost.  Playing 4 Force, 4 Misstep, and 4 Daze is enough free counters to keep most decks off balance.

There are 6 spells that cost double blue in my list and only 4 in yours.  I would hardly call that a lot in either.  Considering my list only has 2 fewer blue sources than yours you should have nearly the same number of color problems. 

I think both of you are trying to do something completely contradictory to the whole point of playing merfolk and fish decks in general.  Isn't the whole point that you are more consistent than all other decks? Hurkyl's and merchant scroll make absolutely no sense to me.  All these changes do is make the deck more inconsistent, in which case what advantage do you have over other decks then?
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« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2011, 05:13:30 PM »

Guys, there are better ways to make a point than by calling a decision 'garbage', an individual 'ignorant', or something 'stupid'. 

Let's keep this thread open.  Please stop from using this kind of language.
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« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2011, 06:09:20 PM »

3 activations? With three attacks any two drop and friends should kill them. Without costing 2 mana a turn. Not to mention being completely dead against shop and oath and fish decks and decks running 3+ jace and tinker and vault/key. Perhaps instead of garbage I should have said 'strictly win more'

This deck isn't comparable to landstill. Why would I check there for advice on how to build this one?

Also if you build your deck with turn one trinisphere as a main concern you're not playing the same format as me.

Obviously there are things wasteland can do that b2b can't and vice versa. But if you weigh them all and actually play with b2b, you'll see the enchantment wins games by itself. It obviously requires some sacrifices, mainly mutavault. If you can't live without that card then play wasteland.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2011, 08:18:24 PM »

3 activations? With three attacks any two drop and friends should kill them. Without costing 2 mana a turn. Not to mention being completely dead against shop and oath and fish decks and decks running 3+ jace and tinker and vault/key. Perhaps instead of garbage I should have said 'strictly win more'

maybe my play style is a lot different than yours but against big blue id prefer to only have to resolve 1 merfolk to win, resolving and protecting multiple merfolk is difficult to do against them while also preventing them from resolving their win cons.  Coralhelm and rootwater are the only 2 that can give a fast clock on their own, both of which have evasion and both of which need fewer swings than any other to win the game.  Against oath rootwater is amazing. remove your oath targets i win? Against blue removing their tinker and vault usually buys enough time to beat their face in the only issue is if they have drawn the cards before you hit with him.  The only win more merfolk ive tested has been cold-eye selkie since hes only effective with a lord in play.

This deck isn't comparable to landstill. Why would I check there for advice on how to build this one?

In the amount of deck manipulation it is.  In fact landstill actually has more and they still dont play tinker.

Also if you build your deck with turn one trinisphere as a main concern you're not playing the same format as me.

Its turn 1 any sphere, trinisphere was just the best example of it since you can literally win the game in that situation just from stripping them.  From my play testing the key to beating stax with this is cutting off their mana supply if possible then trading with their creatures.  My version takes lots of games from them with strip heavy null rod hands.

Obviously there are things wasteland can do that b2b can't and vice versa. But if you weigh them all and actually play with b2b, you'll see the enchantment wins games by itself. It obviously requires some sacrifices, mainly mutavault. If you can't live without that card then play wasteland.

I understand the benefit of back to basics.  I just do not think this is the right deck to play it.  Even with your artifact mana your expected turn to drop it is something like turn 2.5.  Also as you state it only allows you to play mana sources that can only produce mana i think this is sacrificing a huge advantage of being a mono colored deck.

The issues ive ran into with this deck is that if it fall behind its difficult to recover.  Also it struggles in the late game with CA.  I dont believe back to basics solves either of these issues.  Null rod however helps prevent falling behind.  And Rootwater provides some solution to the CA problem, as he reduces their chances of top decks.  Although i havn't tested your list extensively it seems as though it doesn't solve either of these issues.  If you have any suggestions to resolve them id like to hear them.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2011, 10:57:30 PM »

Rootwater thief helps with card advantage? please.

If you are only trying to stick thief, why play the other merfolk? If you land thief you can't really commit to the board. It's bad synergy for your aggro deck.

Ripetide pilferer does help with CA. One reason I really like it is the ease it can be cast turn one with mana artifacts. Not sure how good it would be with null rod.
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Troy_Costisick
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« Reply #48 on: December 13, 2011, 09:07:47 AM »

Wouldn't Thada Adel be better than Rootwater Thief?
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« Reply #49 on: December 13, 2011, 10:34:43 AM »

Wouldn't Thada Adel be better than Rootwater Thief?
Thief can take a singleton Tendrils of Agony.  It also likely gets to attack a turn sooner, which helps to race Tinker.
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vaughnbros
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« Reply #50 on: December 13, 2011, 03:58:08 PM »

Wouldn't Thada Adel be better than Rootwater Thief?

I was running both.  Thada adel is more mana initially, double blue, legendary, has a different type of evasion, and can only take artifacts.  Making the two almost entirely different entities.

Rootwater thief helps with card advantage? please.

If you are only trying to stick thief, why play the other merfolk? If you land thief you can't really commit to the board. It's bad synergy for your aggro deck.

Ripetide pilferer does help with CA. One reason I really like it is the ease it can be cast turn one with mana artifacts. Not sure how good it would be with null rod.

I thought i made myself clear i only want to NEED to resolve 1 creature.  and how is winning with 1 creature bad synergy?

Its riptide* and that hardly addresses late game CA since it doesnt prevent top decks.  I think rootwater provides more CA as he stops tutor affects where as pilferer only affects whats in their hand.

I still have yet to hear any of your analyses on how your version plays against the major players of the meta game.
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John Jones
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« Reply #51 on: November 29, 2012, 12:58:33 AM »

Hmm, okay first sorry for the 30 day necro. 2nd really? No discussion on merfolk though it took a few top 8s the last few months. Either way this question may be more targeted to the NE and Matt Bilfert(sp), but I was playing this list

4 Ęther Vial
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Black Lotus
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Cursecatcher
3 Daze
1 Flooded Strand
4 Force of Will
6 Island
4 Lord of Atlantis
 4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Mental Misstep
3 Merrow Reejerey
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Mox Sapphire
3 Phantasmal Image
1 Scalding Tarn
4 Silvergill Adept
2 Spell Pierce
1 Strip Mine
1 Time Walk
4 Wasteland

Sideboard

2 Dismember
4 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Island
1 Phantasmal Image
4 Steel Sabotage
3 Tormod's Crypt

And from the testing I found that I don't understand a few things
Note: assume the ne meta of shops(seems like kuldotha mostly followed by welder), salvagers, bobsnapcaster,


So first aether vial.
In my magic history I really just don't like this card and probably never will. That being said it is great for two things 1) uncounterable dudes against blue and 2) free dudes against shops. Assuming that the meta is as such wouldn't null rod be strictly better since you already have cavern? Meaning that it hoses your major predators more than vial helps you. In about 12 games tonight my opponent didn't cast it once where it was a relevant factor in the game. That being said rod would have helped against engineered explosives, forgemaster, metalworker, hellkite, moxen, savagers combo, and tvk.

Second
Why mental misstep? What 1 drops are you afraid of? Is it to protect vial? Is it just a free counter? If so has mindbreak trap been tested at all? Exiling spells seems very good right now. it may be a bad fit.
My only liking for this right now is path and swords. Other than the usual recall, vamp, top etc


Third
I don't like phantasmal image because its not a merfolk. Would this be better as anything else? Coldeye selkie, and sygg(ub), don't seem awful and may draw extra cards. Idk it just seems a little weak. Not bad imo, but it is a little awkward. It is bsc defense, which is nice but maybe waterfront would be better?

Yeah those are my concerns for now, thoughts? 

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« Reply #52 on: November 29, 2012, 06:15:08 AM »

Phantasmal Image will be a Merfolk AND Illusion if you copy a Merfolk. Read the card again.
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Vennie
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« Reply #53 on: November 29, 2012, 06:18:52 AM »

I think he's referring to Cavern of Souls.
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d0rsal
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« Reply #54 on: November 29, 2012, 08:16:07 AM »

my guess is that the image is in there as a foil for any big fatties that are 'oathed' or 'tinkered' in against you & its force-pitchable
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« Reply #55 on: November 29, 2012, 01:44:30 PM »

Image also has splash damage vs dredge as it can ETB as a 0/0 and die instantly, exiling bridges.
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« Reply #56 on: November 30, 2012, 04:37:03 PM »

thats a good pt Zek
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« Reply #57 on: December 15, 2012, 12:42:29 PM »

I find that having both cavern of souls and Aether Vial in the same list is potentially too much in vintage, since the cards do not do anything on their own (you need other cards in hand to make them work). There may be room for both but def not as a 4/4 split. You will have way to many dead draws with that many.

I would sooner run cavern than vial if your running null rod. If you want to play the mana denial plan it may serve you well to drop vials for some number of Crucibles and fetches and just keep your mana curve as low as possible so your turn 3 onward can just be mana denial. If your running cavern then CotV makes sense too because you can punch your dudes through with cavern.

Conversely if you want to run Vial, you need to play the best counterspells because that is where your Mana base will be devoted to, since your creatures will be free. This is the list I would think where you want Phantasmal image more because you want your creatures to be on 2 mana for vial and that way you can combat trick a blightsteel, lodestone, or a legend off the table.

Also it may be a sideboard card but spell snare is really good lately from what I have been seeing.

I think the question you need to stop and ask yourself though, is after you have the deck together look at all the creatures you have and then compare them to snapcaster and delver and ask if your better off with fish or not?
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« Reply #58 on: December 15, 2012, 01:15:28 PM »

I find that having both cavern of souls and Aether Vial in the same list is potentially too much in vintage, since the cards do not do anything on their own (you need other cards in hand to make them work).

Lands are bad unless you have spells to cast with them?  Makes sense to me.
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« Reply #59 on: December 15, 2012, 02:58:36 PM »

Vial is not good in the list. I only see it as powerful against Shops on the play. Otherwise, it's too weak.
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