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Author Topic: Vintage Videos Thread  (Read 6612 times)
Meddling Mike
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« on: November 17, 2011, 10:04:09 PM »

I've been playing around lately with creating videos similar the ones websites like Starcity, ChannelFireball and DraftMagic have been doing on MTGO. We had a few videos posted from the most recent TMD Invitational. I've been working on improving and came across this little gem on DraftMagic.

It includes a fantastic overview of how to make high quality magic videos as well as describing how to assemble freeware to get quality comparable to that of a more high end program like Camtasia. If you have any interest in  recording your Vintage games on MWS or Cockatrice I highly recommend you read/watch this tutorial.

I managed to grab The Atog Lord for some quick test games to record and upload to YouTube.

Game 1
Game 2
Game 3 Part 1
Game 3 Part 2

The audio leaves something to be desired, but I would imagine that has more to do with my crappy on board mic on my laptop rather than the software. I'll try to make sure to use my mic headset if possible in the future.
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« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2011, 10:16:10 PM »

Yes! Awesome!

It'd also be terrific if we could also have a list of websites with videos of real-life magic being played. Some starters:

Mana Infinito: http://manainfinito.com/videos
Coverage of the 9/3/11 Team Serious open on own3d: http://www.own3d.tv/video/196411/Team_Serious_Open_09-03-2011_-_Finals_-_Stephen_Menendian_vs_Jimmy_McCarthy

There's a bunch of Solymossy floating around that I've seen but can't find at the moment...
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« Reply #2 on: November 18, 2011, 12:48:09 AM »

On game 1, you had only Metamorph in hand and you waited 1 turn to copy his confidant, you should have copied it right away, then block or take the card draw, but you just gave him a free turn.

On game 3, the turn after you forgot to cast your second Lodestone, you play Mishra's factory, then get your Lodestone bounced and countered. If you had waited to play your land, you would have been able to play sol ring + your second Ancient tomb and drop both Lodestone on the same turn. That was 2 big mistakes in 2 turns.

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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #3 on: November 18, 2011, 01:20:31 AM »

On game 1, you had only Metamorph in hand and you waited 1 turn to copy his confidant, you should have copied it right away, then block or take the card draw, but you just gave him a free turn.

On game 3, the turn after you forgot to cast your second Lodestone, you play Mishra's factory, then get your Lodestone bounced and countered. If you had waited to play your land, you would have been able to play sol ring + your second Ancient tomb and drop both Lodestone on the same turn. That was 2 big mistakes in 2 turns.
I don't have any excuses for Game 3, but I stand by the decision I made in Game 1. The play you are suggesting would require an Ancient Tomb activation and paying another 2 life for Phyrexian Blue. With Academy if we drew a blank next turn we could copy without taking damage, if it's not a blank it might be something worth copying, like a Lodestone Golem. I'd also mention that I don't think Metamorphing a Dark Confidant is actually a good play for this deck, all those big artifacts, it was more of a desperation play to get some action and hopefully trade off for something.
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« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2011, 01:21:49 AM »

On game 1, you had only Metamorph in hand and you waited 1 turn to copy his confidant, you should have copied it right away, then block or take the card draw, but you just gave him a free turn.

On game 3, the turn after you forgot to cast your second Lodestone, you play Mishra's factory, then get your Lodestone bounced and countered. If you had waited to play your land, you would have been able to play sol ring + your second Ancient tomb and drop both Lodestone on the same turn. That was 2 big mistakes in 2 turns.



I was shouting at the screen when those happened, but I think that just shows this was a great proof of concept. Kept me interested, allowed me to analyze plays, and also see what another person would have done. Great job.
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« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2011, 08:12:43 AM »

WOW!  Awesome, MM.  This sort of thing is SO important for Vintage.  One thing I would ask, though, is if you could make a YouTube channel just for Vintage?  I think I may have a few players in my local area interested in learning, so having a channel devoted just to that would be terrific.  Smile

Peace,

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« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2011, 12:26:56 PM »

We @ Maná Infinito have thought many times on the idea of camera recording some testing matches just for the joy of it and publish them.

However, we have not reached a consensus if this is going to be interesting for the broader public without some off voice explanation of what´s going on or why someone has done this and that...



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« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2011, 01:46:16 PM »

We @ Maná Infinito have thought many times on the idea of camera recording some testing matches just for the joy of it and publish them.

However, we have not reached a consensus if this is going to be interesting for the broader public without some off voice explanation of what´s going on or why someone has done this and that...





This would be great. No explanation is needed. There is alot of folks who love vintage, but don't have a local community - so we love to just watch some vintage action.
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #8 on: November 18, 2011, 06:46:50 PM »

WOW!  Awesome, MM.  This sort of thing is SO important for Vintage.  One thing I would ask, though, is if you could make a YouTube channel just for Vintage?  I think I may have a few players in my local area interested in learning, so having a channel devoted just to that would be terrific.  Smile

Peace,

-Troy

I'm still sort of learning my way around YouTube. Made a channel here and combined the individual games into a playlist that has the whole match in sequence. I'll try to keep this stuff organized as I make it.
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« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2011, 10:10:47 PM »

Wow, you have to keep track of your own life totals and counters on those free programs?  I'm so sorry.. you guys are playing in the stone age.  And I thought MTGO had a bad interface.  I hope Power 9 comes to Magic Online soon!
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« Reply #10 on: November 18, 2011, 10:47:11 PM »

i assume you recorded the audio while playing the actual game, right? i was wondering how feasible it would be to record the audio afterwards. while definitely more time consuming i guess it could improve the flow and content density. the question is though how much of that "on the spot" thinking magic games are so much about is lost that way.

i personally am using fraps to record my screen and edit the footage in premiere afterwards. that's not really a low budget option though, and does not work for a quick video either.

Wow, you have to keep track of your own life totals and counters on those free programs?  I'm so sorry.. you guys are playing in the stone age.  And I thought MTGO had a bad interface.  I hope Power 9 comes to Magic Online soon!
when was the last time you played with actual magic cardboard? Very Happy
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #11 on: November 19, 2011, 12:32:30 AM »

Wow, you have to keep track of your own life totals and counters on those free programs?  I'm so sorry.. you guys are playing in the stone age.  And I thought MTGO had a bad interface.  I hope Power 9 comes to Magic Online soon!

Well...I mean...it is free, MTGO costs money.
i assume you recorded the audio while playing the actual game, right? i was wondering how feasible it would be to record the audio afterwards. while definitely more time consuming i guess it could improve the flow and content density. the question is though how much of that "on the spot" thinking magic games are so much about is lost that way.

i personally am using fraps to record my screen and edit the footage in premiere afterwards. that's not really a low budget option though, and does not work for a quick video either.

Wow, you have to keep track of your own life totals and counters on those free programs?  I'm so sorry.. you guys are playing in the stone age.  And I thought MTGO had a bad interface.  I hope Power 9 comes to Magic Online soon!
when was the last time you played with actual magic cardboard? Very Happy

Yeah, I record at the time, I've seen them do game replays after the fact when a file has been lost or something on MTGO. It's not as enjoyable I think.
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« Reply #12 on: November 19, 2011, 02:36:35 AM »

I think there is a lot of value in your real time decision making process, the mistakes make for better teaching examples and its more realistic as the viewer is following along real time as well. You can always add a quick recap either on TMD or with additional voice over post game if you wanted to have post match analysis.
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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #13 on: November 19, 2011, 03:17:21 AM »

Rich Shay w/Gush Storm v. Dredge

Game 1
Game 2
Game 3

I should have activated my Bazaar in response to hard cast Leyline in Game 2 and arguably I shouldn't have hard cast Narcomoeba off Lotus in Game 1 to leave mana open for Fatestitcher. Otherwise I don't think there were any serious misplays. Any thoughts on the sideboarding? I was very unsure about the cards I chose to bring out.
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« Reply #14 on: November 19, 2011, 01:07:19 PM »

We @ Maná Infinito have thought many times on the idea of camera recording some testing matches just for the joy of it and publish them.

However, we have not reached a consensus if this is going to be interesting for the broader public without some off voice explanation of what´s going on or why someone has done this and that...

This would be great. No explanation is needed. There is alot of folks who love vintage, but don't have a local community - so we love to just watch some vintage action.

Yes, seconded -- I would love to see more, ahem, REAL magic games being played on video Smile. It's kind of hard to explain to onlookers why it's entertaining, but past that it's pure gravy.
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« Reply #15 on: November 19, 2011, 08:55:45 PM »

Can't say I'm a huge fan of the channel name 'ForLoveoftheSox', but at least you're not a Yankees fan  Very Happy.

The audio seems fine.

I agree with your assessment of your two misplays. At the end of game two, you should have made Rich get his Tinker target. It would've been nice for non-Vintage players to see what the current Tinker target is nowadays since it seems to change every few months. In game three, Rich could have responded to the first Landfall trigger with Rav Trap if he had it. With no gas in hand staring down double Bazaar, I doubt it would've mattered anyway.

I don't know if siding out two Ichorids is ever correct, even against a deck without Strip effects. Ichorids aid in putting pressure on an opponent to decide whether or not to pop a Spellbomb/Crypt/Relic. Against Gush Storm, you'll want to keep in at least one Titan and Stitcher. After you deal with their piece(s) of hate, it is important to maintain some of the deck's speed. I would've gone +10 CoV/Claim/Firestorm; -1 Titan, -1 Stitcher, -1 Salvage, -1 LED, -1 Petal, -1 B. Lotus, -1 Dread Return, -1 Ancestral, -2 Grudge. I've only played Dredge in three tournaments with only one of those being Sunny Dredge, so hopefully someone like Scalzo, Hornung, or any of the other excellent Dredge pilots could weigh in.
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« Reply #16 on: November 19, 2011, 08:58:41 PM »

Here's the Pandemonium channel: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/vintage-at-pandemonium

At the moment, there's videos for rounds 2-4 of swiss, then top8 and top4. The top 2 split.
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« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2011, 11:15:18 PM »

Great thread! I think this is a fantastic idea. I, for one, learned a lot just by watching your matches and analyzing your thought process. Once I figure out the new cockatrice, I'll post some videos, too.

P.S. couldn't make it through the Pandemonium videos...those proxies are seriously painful...
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« Reply #18 on: November 19, 2011, 11:47:51 PM »

Great thread! I think this is a fantastic idea. I, for one, learned a lot just by watching your matches and analyzing your thought process. Once I figure out the new cockatrice, I'll post some videos, too.

P.S. couldn't make it through the Pandemonium videos...those proxies are seriously painful...

Yeah, that's a downside. It serves its purpose though. We had 2 people play vintage for the first time today at the tournament, and they said that they loved it and would definitely come to the next event.
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« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2011, 07:58:30 AM »

Seconded the comment about how awesome cock matches are with the voice-over. Really makes them almost as good as watching the matches with real cards Smile
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« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2011, 11:56:58 AM »

Excellent idea doing matches with voice-over.
I thought it was very entertaining and you really get to know the decks much better with the player thinking aloud.

Keep 'em coming.
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« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2011, 04:35:27 PM »

I own a Ventrilo server if anyone would like to use it for matches. Rather easy to just pop in a channel and chat while you play the match. Let me know and I can send out the info.
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« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2011, 11:39:38 PM »

Rich Shay w/Gush Storm v. Dredge

Game 1
Game 2
Game 3

I should have activated my Bazaar in response to hard cast Leyline in Game 2 and arguably I shouldn't have hard cast Narcomoeba off Lotus in Game 1 to leave mana open for Fatestitcher. Otherwise I don't think there were any serious misplays. Any thoughts on the sideboarding? I was very unsure about the cards I chose to bring out.



This is a pretty sweet idea. Just watched the Dredge videos...

I would NEVER EVER!!!!! side out Ichorids.....EVER!!! The thing is in Games 2/3 you need to remain as threat dense as possible. Especially because you may need to discard into a Leyline or playing Vs crypt effects or Extraction/Extripate. Gambling on him not having Vault/Key is risky but not entirely wrong. I would have side boarded as follows...

-3 Fatestitcher
-2 Sun Titan
-1 LED
-1 Lotus Petal
-2 Dread Return
-1 Ancestral Recall

+3 Chain of Vapor
+4 Nature's Claim
+3 Firestorm


Games become such a grind against hate that it is usually never worth keeping in dead cards that are only effective when your ahead. You often have too small a window for these cards, especially being on the draw, to be used at all. I could see a case if you know they don't have Vault/Key for taking out the Grudges and Keeping a Dread Return and Ancestral Recall in. Dakmor is too good to side out, it keeps your Dredge density high and triggers Bloodghast if need be.


The game two misplay of not activating Bazaar in response to the Leyline was back breaking. You could have ditched Bridge, Ghast, and Therapy and then played your land to return Ghast, Cabal Therapy for Misstep and then destroyed Leyline with Claim. Even with that, I would have led with Chain first on his end step to draw out the counter and then Claim.

For Game 3 I would have resided in a Sun Titan and another Dread Return and then taken out the Grudges in an attempt to have the deck become more threatening faster on the play.


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« Reply #23 on: November 21, 2011, 12:44:00 AM »

I would NEVER EVER!!!!! side out Ichorids.....EVER!!! The thing is in Games 2/3 you need to remain as threat dense as possible. Especially because you may need to discard into a Leyline or playing Vs crypt effects or Extraction/Extripate. Gambling on him not having Vault/Key is risky but not entirely wrong.
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Games become such a grind against hate that it is usually never worth keeping in dead cards that are only effective when your ahead. You often have too small a window for these cards, especially being on the draw, to be used at all. I could see a case if you know they don't have Vault/Key for taking out the Grudges and Keeping a Dread Return and Ancestral Recall in. Dakmor is too good to side out, it keeps your Dredge density high and triggers Bloodghast if need be.


I think I actually view Ichorid as being a dead card that is only effective when you are ahead. Thinking about it, you need to get him into the bin AND have a steady excess of black creatures that you don't require for dredging or Bloodghasts. Ideally you would have Cabal Therapy, Bridge From Below or Dread Return/DR targets also in the graveyard to really maximize his value. So if they play a Leyline it's a dead card. It doesn't work under Yixlid Jailer either. I can see how you would want it to draw out a Ravenous Trap or get them to pop a Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb before they would normally, but still, not sure he should be considered a "threat" or untouchable when considering a sideboard plan.

If we're working with a small window shouldn't we want the cards that will allow us to generate the most powerful effect possible in that window? If I bounce my opponent's Leyline of the Void on their end step and I expect them to replay it next turn I think my goal is definitely to stick a Dread Return or bring back a Fatestitcher to maximize the value of that window of opportunity we've created for ourselves.

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« Reply #24 on: November 21, 2011, 12:54:37 AM »

I would NEVER EVER!!!!! side out Ichorids.....EVER!!! The thing is in Games 2/3 you need to remain as threat dense as possible. Especially because you may need to discard into a Leyline or playing Vs crypt effects or Extraction/Extripate. Gambling on him not having Vault/Key is risky but not entirely wrong.
Quote
Games become such a grind against hate that it is usually never worth keeping in dead cards that are only effective when your ahead. You often have too small a window for these cards, especially being on the draw, to be used at all. I could see a case if you know they don't have Vault/Key for taking out the Grudges and Keeping a Dread Return and Ancestral Recall in. Dakmor is too good to side out, it keeps your Dredge density high and triggers Bloodghast if need be.


I think I actually view Ichorid as being a dead card that is only effective when you are ahead. Thinking about it, you need to get him into the bin AND have a steady excess of black creatures that you don't require for dredging or Bloodghasts. Ideally you would have Cabal Therapy, Bridge From Below or Dread Return/DR targets also in the graveyard to really maximize his value. So if they play a Leyline it's a dead card. It doesn't work under Yixlid Jailer either. I can see how you would want it to draw out a Ravenous Trap or get them to pop a Tormod's Crypt/Nihil Spellbomb before they would normally, but still, not sure he should be considered a "threat" or untouchable when considering a sideboard plan.

If we're working with a small window shouldn't we want the cards that will allow us to generate the most powerful effect possible in that window? If I bounce my opponent's Leyline of the Void on their end step and I expect them to replay it next turn I think my goal is definitely to stick a Dread Return or bring back a Fatestitcher to maximize the value of that window of opportunity we've created for ourselves.



IMO its about remaining threat dense for as long as you can while you are digging. Having the extra potential for another creature to hit during that window of opportunity is huge. I am pretty sure we are going to have to agree to disagree on Ichoird. It looks like it is more of a preference of game plan and what we determine to be useful in games 2/3 because I can use a similar argument against DR/Stitcher staying in as you did with Ichorid. I can see this just turning into one of those endless debates that appear on here in a growing frequency.....

Maxing the value in the window is more about just sticking creatures. I could get behind maybe keeping Fatestitchers to hit more but keeping both in and being relevant leads me right into your argument against Ichorid. You need three creatures to hit, Dredgers, Etc..... The overall picture for keeping the 1-2 Dread Return and FKZ in is to possibly kill your opp if they keep a greedy hand or something to that effect. I think for the most part game 2-3 you should focus on grinding, which is where Ichorid comes in....



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Meddling Mike
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« Reply #25 on: November 21, 2011, 03:44:16 AM »

More vids. This time I gave Landstill a whirl.

Game 1
Game 2
Game 3
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« Reply #26 on: November 21, 2011, 08:11:32 AM »

Is there any function existing (or possible) in Cockatrice to track the cards that get played by phase, so you could also have a text string history of a game?

This is great, but if the real gem here is to discuss play decisions, and someone doesn't have 6-20 minutes to devote to this, but wants to participate, text summaries in conjunction with video would be a valuable addition.
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« Reply #27 on: November 21, 2011, 05:20:09 PM »

Very interesting, thanks. Rich seems like the nicest guy.
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« Reply #28 on: November 22, 2011, 10:14:39 AM »

Very interesting, thanks. Rich seems like the nicest guy.
It's true.  Rich is one of the coolest dudes in the community.
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« Reply #29 on: November 30, 2011, 03:48:08 AM »

Played a match with Daenyth

Very interesting scenario for Gavin in part 2 of Game 1 where he was unable to get a Tinker through my spheres.
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