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Author Topic: GW 2K12ish  (Read 17399 times)
Guli
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« Reply #90 on: April 15, 2012, 10:01:46 AM »

I want my Teeg, Thalia, Aven and Kataki in my hand. Even if most are legendary. That is fixable by the way. There are options with cards that discard for value. I don't know if a dedicated cycle engine should be used anyway. The virtual card advantage of these bears is outweighs the potential dead card in your hand. And if it gets removed, you have a back up. You also don't want to lose tempo. It would be acceptable to throw in a Survival in there somewhere, it is fine, but if it is not needed, why do that?

Starting from the thought stream above, I need to consider a couple of things:

- I want a good spread out answer versus chalice 2. Very specific. This has to be 1 card in game 1 and another card post board. These cards must have 1 cc and 3 cc. Both can not be the same cc. In the end you will have a nice curve of strong 1,2 and 3 cc answers.
- Same thing goes for Oath in a way...
- I want to have cheap multiple answers versus Tinker.
- In fact, I want my answer to Tinker be good against any creatures

What am I trying to do? I am trying to use a lot of acceleration and quickly drop high quality threats. Threats that NEED to be answered by blue or shops or storm. Make them burn that Force of Will and another blue card.The acceleration will help me to be fast enough versus blue, combo and help me to bypass spheres versus shop decks.

Then, while I am doing all that, casting my 2 drop bombs, I also have a plan cycle away dead cards for a disenchant effect in case this is needed. Yes, this might be slow, but I also have another plan in place. This plan simultaneously is the best solution to my other problems, tinker and aggro. I am talking about Devout Witness as a removal stick and cycle engine. And 4 path accompanied by 2 Swords to Plowshares. We want it in our hand, to clear the path for our Jedi Knights, the bomb 2 drops, the hatebears... If path and swords are dead cards, you must be playing a non existing deck and SURELY Thalia, Teeg, Aven, Kataki will overwhelm that.

You don't need a draw engine, you don't need to 'draw' into threats, you need to convert whatever you drew into value. That is the very nature of beat down. Pure virtual card advantage. You do this by either casting them or by discarding.

On top of all that, I am using the flagstone and quarter mana base with 5 basics in main. This is extremely solid. You either fetch your basics or you aggressively use the Quarters on them with Arbiter and Aven online. Yea I added THAT too, and yea I had slots to do that... Amazingly strong

GW Beats PURE HATE

4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Aven Mindcensor
4 Kataki, War's Wage
4 Leonin Arbiter
4 Devout Witness

4 Path to Exile
2 Swords to Plowshares
2 Stony Silence


4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Pearl
1 Black Lotus
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Lotus Petal

4 Ghost Quarter
4 Flagstones of Trokair
3 Forest
2 Plains
2 Karakas

SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 4 Scavenging Ooze
SB: 2 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 1 Stony Silence
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xouman
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« Reply #91 on: April 15, 2012, 03:48:09 PM »

What's the reason not to include qasali? They are better against most pairings than some of those playsets included.

It seems that now there are plenty of options in GW fish/beats/bears/whatever. Good job looking for awesome decks of your own design Wink
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Guli
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« Reply #92 on: April 15, 2012, 04:15:51 PM »

I believe Noble and Pridemage go well alongside because of exalted. The focus here is a bit different and the acceleration is also different. You still have Kataki, Stony and Devout to take care of artifacts/enchantment. Also with high of 1cc creature removal, you should be a tad safer versus Shop until the bombs kick in. You lose exalted but you get some things in return.

An important thing I want to declare about my vision is that I don't think trying to respond to the new modern blue vintage decks, which is a lot of tempo and draw, is to try 'outdraw' them. You will never ever succeed in that. So I think the best way is to INCREASE your hate bears, doing the exact opposite. This is how a GW hate deck is built from my point of view. A Midrange Beat deck (with noble, ranger and gsz) is less hateful but tries to control a bit more, which is fine too, but I believe the list I posted could appeal more.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2012, 04:37:54 PM by Guli » Logged

credmond
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« Reply #93 on: April 15, 2012, 05:43:21 PM »

I believe Noble and Pridemage go well alongside because of exalted. The focus here is a bit different and the acceleration is also different. You still have Kataki, Stony and Devout to take care of artifacts/enchantment. Also with high of 1cc creature removal, you should be a tad safer versus Shop until the bombs kick in. You lose exalted but you get some things in return.

An important thing I want to declare about my vision is that I don't think trying to respond to the new modern blue vintage decks, which is a lot of tempo and draw, is to try 'outdraw' them. You will never ever succeed in that. So I think the best way is to INCREASE your hate bears, doing the exact opposite. This is how a GW hate deck is built from my point of view. A Midrange Beat deck (with noble, ranger and gsz) is less hateful but tries to control a bit more, which is fine too, but I believe the list I posted could appeal more.

Drawing cards is important though. If there was a GW equivalent of a Dark Confidant you would play it in a heartbeat and it would be the best card in the deck. Drawing cards keeps the threats coming and is critical to the decks ability to survive sweepers like Perish.
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Guli
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« Reply #94 on: April 16, 2012, 01:33:06 AM »

I believe Noble and Pridemage go well alongside because of exalted. The focus here is a bit different and the acceleration is also different. You still have Kataki, Stony and Devout to take care of artifacts/enchantment. Also with high of 1cc creature removal, you should be a tad safer versus Shop until the bombs kick in. You lose exalted but you get some things in return.

An important thing I want to declare about my vision is that I don't think trying to respond to the new modern blue vintage decks, which is a lot of tempo and draw, is to try 'outdraw' them. You will never ever succeed in that. So I think the best way is to INCREASE your hate bears, doing the exact opposite. This is how a GW hate deck is built from my point of view. A Midrange Beat deck (with noble, ranger and gsz) is less hateful but tries to control a bit more, which is fine too, but I believe the list I posted could appeal more.

Drawing cards is important though. If there was a GW equivalent of a Dark Confidant you would play it in a heartbeat and it would be the best card in the deck. Drawing cards keeps the threats coming and is critical to the decks ability to survive sweepers like Perish.
Yes, and No. Putting out the pressure like a champ is what makes the best card advantage. Surely a turn 1 BoB is great versus some decks, but can you imagine this versus a fast ritual deck? You rahter have that turn 1 thalia, teeg or arbiter. I am telling you, if you can lay down your bombs, you are drawing cards in a sense. It doesn't take long for 3 two power bears with virtual card advantage to finish of the game combined with a strip effect or two.

I rather have a green 2 cc bear with legend that says, discard a legendary creature card, counter target blue or black instant or sorcery. We don't need draw, we need pressure and value.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 01:46:46 AM by Guli » Logged

xouman
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« Reply #95 on: April 16, 2012, 03:44:01 AM »

I've been playing TMWA for several moths and now I have a list pretty solid against mud, with some advantage against most fishes, but I still lose to CA. If blue player can counter my first couple of menaces, and then play ancestral, snapcaster +  ancestral or puts a jace in play, I'm f*cked.

For example, drains player can counter your first creature, or bolt/sword it, then play snapcaster to block a second creature, while reusing ancestral. In that scenario you will probably lose, because opponent will have more resources than you. It's different when he must play force of will, losing a card, having invalid cards in hand (fetches with mindcensor/arbiter, or fows with gaddock), so the key is have REAL card advantage.

Of course it's better to apply pressure than sit with cards in hand, but drawing a hand with 4 lands and 3 spells and having 2 countered is nasty. Or having 2 gaddocks in hand and one in play while your opponent draws like a sir and attacks with vendillions, it's not the best scenario.
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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #96 on: April 16, 2012, 04:49:43 AM »

dont like the 4x in legendary creature

dont like 6 swords.... 

And THAT manabase is toooo light on green sources. Ok you have lot of 1-off effects but only 3 forests ? i'd play 6-7 duals. U dont have green , you dont need basic forest in 90% of matches
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StanleyAugust
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« Reply #97 on: April 16, 2012, 06:25:23 AM »

I agree with xouman here. Those Snapcaster decks are a real pain to fight because they so often will get way ahead on resources and I can nod in recognition of the scenario he's putting up.

At the moment I unfortunately don't think that GW is a very good choice, mainly for two reasons:

1) The meta is very open (at least in my area). When you risk facing Oath, Mud, Gush, Dredge, Bomberman, Delver variants, Snapcaster variants etc. it's very hard to construct your deck properly. GW is a deck that, probably more so than any other deck, wants to interact with the opponent and fight against his strategy. That is very hard to do when you're facing a wide variety of different decks. Of course this is true for any deck, but due to the nature of the GW build it's hard to fight against a very open meta when you play very specific answers because it means that you want have (that many or good) answers for all your opponents. Of course if you know your meta very well and it mainly consists of a few different archtypes it's much easier to construct your deck in the right way because you know what you're up against and hence what you should be playing.

2) As creature decks have become much more popular in recent time (Midrange Bant, Fish, Goyfs, Delvers, Snapcasters etc.) more and more decks are packing creature hate which obviously is a bad thing for a deck that have no way of winning besides attacking with small critters. Lightning Bolts, Swords are everywhere these days and I've seen Massacre, Perish, Darkblast, Pyroclasm etc. out of the board a lot as well.
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bax
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« Reply #98 on: April 16, 2012, 07:21:34 AM »


1) The meta is very open (at least in my area). When you risk facing Oath, Mud, Gush, Dredge, Bomberman, Delver variants, Snapcaster variants etc. it's very hard to construct your deck properly. GW is a deck that, probably more so than any other deck, wants to interact with the opponent and fight against his strategy. That is very hard to do when you're facing a wide variety of different decks. Of course this is true for any deck, but due to the nature of the GW build it's hard to fight against a very open meta when you play very specific answers because it means that you want have (that many or good) answers for all your opponents. Of course if you know your meta very well and it mainly consists of a few different archtypes it's much easier to construct your deck in the right way because you know what you're up against and hence what you should be playing.

GW is always an option in a diverse metagame because it's a deck that is 50%/50% vs almost everything. Does not have auto-loss from any other deck (goblin included) and post side can beat any other deck. Obviously knowing you meta well and setting your GW properly can improve your % of win against that specific meta.

Having said the above, it is a deck that do not forgive for mistakes, not having any density of broken cards and play it will not allow you to recover from mistakes and misplays. This is the fundamental reason why GW is so scarcely present in T8s - not because the deck power level is low or the meta wrong.

Quote
2) As creature decks have become much more popular in recent time (Midrange Bant, Fish, Goyfs, Delvers, Snapcasters etc.) more and more decks are packing creature hate which obviously is a bad thing for a deck that have no way of winning besides attacking with small critters. Lightning Bolts, Swords are everywhere these days and I've seen Massacre, Perish, Darkblast, Pyroclasm etc. out of the board a lot as well.

Point is that packing swords is not the answer.

Swords/path is a 1-for-1 card that drawn against - let's say - Snapcontrol do nothing. And you have 6 dead drawn!
What we need to find is some good removal that do not force the GW to be stuck with cards that do 1-for-1 while our opponents play easily a pyroclasm burning 6 of our critter for 2 miserable mana.
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imRauSch
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« Reply #99 on: April 16, 2012, 07:47:10 AM »

Guli I run a very similar list which mainly packs pure hate and was quite surprised by its effectiveness (as I'm pretty new to vintage). I run also the search denial package of 4 x Arbiter and 3 x Mindcensor to combine it with 4 x Ghostquarter and 4 x Path. It is very strong with the mana denial cards of the deck (Stony Silence, Wasteland and Strip Mine) and I absolutely agree with you that both the mana denial and hate legends usually create enough virtual card advantage to win.

However, as mentioned above, the sticking points are twofold. The first one being other creature decks. For instance, your actual list flat out loses to your old list. This is also true against other creature based decks. Now, this is of course vintage and you usually don't expect such decks but it is still something to keep in mind and to be prepared for. Here, both Noble and Pridemage perform doubly duty by providing exalted and their utility against powered decks.

Secondly, and this is what I couldn't come up with a satisfying solution for yet, how to deal with blue packing enough creature removal. I just want to bring up a recent game I had (I don't remember the exact cards but you'll get the idea): He mulled to 4 and was on the play, I kept my starting 7.
Him: Land, go.
Me: Land, Mox, Hatebear, which he forces.
Him: Land, go.
Me: Hatebear, which gets drained.
Him: Jace -> I scoop.

Now you can basically exchange his force for dismember or bolt or whatever, the point is that removal + blue's card advantage just wrecks you and there is not much you can do about it imo. One way to counter this is to play real card advantage yourself e.g. Sylvan Library or splash blue for recall. The list which Bax provided goes into that direction and I think this is the way to go for this deck if you want to keep up.
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Guli
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« Reply #100 on: April 16, 2012, 07:47:53 AM »

There are 4 Esg, emerald, lotus, petal, 3 basic forest, 4 quarters that are green mana. Quarters on Flagstone gets you plains and forest and you have 2 mana cause you tap flagstone and get an untapped forets.

Thalia (and all the mana denial) makes life hard for Snapcaster. You get in Ooze for more Snapcaster shutdowns. There is a lot pressure on them, if they have the Force, a recall followed by snap into another recall in first draw 7 then they have just draw a very powerful hand. Not much you can do about that with any deck. If they have Force and use it on your first Teeg or Thalia the next turn your threat will most likely resolve. Thalia shuts down mana drain btw, especially with wasteland backup. Decks that run  1 cc removal like stp or bolt AND mana drain/force look strong on paper, but those decks usually are strong and depend highly on good draws to win. Let me play 20 games vs Stonforge/drain and 20 games against some land-still variant, bring your best pilot and we ll see what results we get and can draw conclusions then.. And besides, those bolts and stp are really not cards they want to see against combo.

What I would like is a fluent way to cycle, transform the legendary stuff or unnecessary lands. I find Devout slow, but it does solve some specific issues for me. I hope someday they print something that serves the same role as Devout but does the job a bit faster and more fluently without losing tempo. It is solid though.


Secondly, and this is what I couldn't come up with a satisfying solution for yet, how to deal with blue packing enough creature removal. I just want to bring up a recent game I had (I don't remember the exact cards but you'll get the idea): He mulled to 4 and was on the play, I kept my starting 7.
Him: Land, go.
Me: Land, Mox, Hatebear, which he forces.
Him: Land, go.
Me: Hatebear, which gets drained.
Him: Jace -> I scoop.

Now you can basically exchange his force for dismember or bolt or whatever, the point is that removal + blue's card advantage just wrecks you and there is not much you can do about it imo. One way to counter this is to play real card advantage yourself e.g. Sylvan Library or splash blue for recall. The list which Bax provided goes into that direction and I think this is the way to go for this deck if you want to keep up.

I am sure you don't run 4x best bears (thalia, teeg, aven, kataki). That is the uniqueness about this deck. It does not want to fall to a Force of Will on first threat, but it does punish them if they DON'T have FoW on turn 0. They will have to have a hand with Force, Drain, Blue card, Removal, Jace, Lands.... This does not happen every game, if it would there would be no GW or Mono White decks around. For now, you will have to accept that that kind of hands and lines of play are hard for the GW pilot. But it is still possible to win through that with correct decisions and play mistakes on their part. Same thing happens in chess, human players make a lot of mistakes, even in serious competitions. And this is in a way being generous towards your opponent, because you are giving them chances to come back or recover. Magic is not a game were people play perfectly, not even close... this is the reality...theorizing here about this and that line can help on some topics but when you are in game making decisions, you get chances. And like bax states correctly, it is harder for GW to make the correct calls. How hard is it to Force that Teeg, drain Thalia and cast Jace for free brainstorm...

Casting turn 1 Noble is not better against those strong anti aggro blue control lines. If anything, it is worse, because you just gave them an extra turn to set up drain and jace or snapcaster shenanigans. Then, it is way better to stick that first bomb as soon as possible and let force it. Again, if they have the perfect hand, things get messy, but I think in the long run, your will resolve more turn 1 bomb than they will counter it with force... You guys will see this if you play enough games with the ESG aceleration and moxes into Teeg, Thalia, Arbiter. And after a while you develop the sharpness to even fight through that turn 1 FoW + Removal. I suggest trying out Ooze, it can turn the game in your favour quickly.

Do NOT be afraid of being outdrawn, your bears generate card disadvantage for your opponent. Ancestral Recall is just a bit more obvious, it literally says 'draw 3 cards'.


Another idea I am working on to cycle or transform extra legends into value is use Survival of the Fittest. Cards that are in this thought pool: Vengevine, Squee, Rootwalla. I have also a thing for Wild Mongrel. Once you cast it, it is a free engine. I am not sure something can be done with it, but it can be played 4x because it can cycle everything, including itself. To make room for this, the Quarters, Flagstones, Arbiter, Devout and Stony could be replaced with some kind of fluent engine involving Mongrels. FLashback cards can be used, Madness, Landfall, etc. while generating clock (so you transform cards into clock and try to get an additional value from the grave). The deck still opts for a turn 1 bomb followed by turn 2 bomb and so on... But instead of the 9 strip and Devout plan, it would try to finish the game quickly with Mongrel and Vengevine. I have NO IDEA if this would be stronger than mana denial. Mana denial is strong alongside Kataki and Thalia. Especially with Kataki 4x, I don't see how shop survives this brutal plan. Don't forget the path/stp.

If you guys can come up with interesting and creative ways to fluently use a card like Mongrel as an 'engine' and 'clock' as a support to the 16 hosers and acceleration, please do post.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2012, 08:17:02 AM by Guli » Logged

Blue Lotus
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« Reply #101 on: April 16, 2012, 09:34:12 AM »


Drawing cards is important though. If there was a GW equivalent of a Dark Confidant you would play it in a heartbeat and it would be the best card in the deck. Drawing cards keeps the threats coming and is critical to the decks ability to survive sweepers like Perish.
But there is no GW equivalent on confidant, not by a long shot. So you can play worse card draw engines, like selkie, or ignore it all together.
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bax
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« Reply #102 on: April 16, 2012, 09:52:57 AM »


Drawing cards is important though. If there was a GW equivalent of a Dark Confidant you would play it in a heartbeat and it would be the best card in the deck. Drawing cards keeps the threats coming and is critical to the decks ability to survive sweepers like Perish.
But there is no GW equivalent on confidant, not by a long shot. So you can play worse card draw engines, like selkie, or ignore it all together.

True but on this subject this might have a future !! Looking forward for someone to break it in GW (because with Emrakul & Mutavault is the obvious synergy already identified)!

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Kymagicplayer
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« Reply #103 on: April 16, 2012, 10:31:02 AM »

Guli do you have any tournament play with the deck? If so how does it perform? Are the tournaments online like coaktrice or mws? or at your local store? what is your meta game like?

The main problem I see with this deck, is that one board sweep and you lose. The second problem I see is having a lot of dead cards in your hand, due to the legends.. yeah you can recast them AFTER they board wipe you, but your only casting one maybe 2 per turn to get caught back up...

I played fish last night at the tournament, and the only 2 decks I lost too, were creature decks. I see this deck having even more problems out of other creature decks then the noble fish build.
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Guli
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« Reply #104 on: April 16, 2012, 12:41:24 PM »

Guli do you have any tournament play with the deck? If so how does it perform? Are the tournaments online like coaktrice or mws? or at your local store? what is your meta game like?

The main problem I see with this deck, is that one board sweep and you lose. The second problem I see is having a lot of dead cards in your hand, due to the legends.. yeah you can recast them AFTER they board wipe you, but your only casting one maybe 2 per turn to get caught back up...

I played fish last night at the tournament, and the only 2 decks I lost too, were creature decks. I see this deck having even more problems out of other creature decks then the noble fish build.
Not with this specific list, but I will probably run it in online tournaments for the coming weeks (or a similar version). I have had reasonable success with Scryb Ranger GW beats with Noble and a bit less hate cards (for example only 3 Thalia and 2 Kataki). I have tried GWb with Dark Confidants with and without vial. I have been testing a lot of things lately to be honest. So you should not take it lightly when I say it is best to drop your bombs asap. To consistently drop Thalia or Teeg turn 1 you need 2 things: the mana to do it, and the card must be in your hand. That is the reason to run 4x of each and the on color acceleration.

Dropping these cards hurts the opponent for sure. But it has weaknesses like any strategy. What I am trying to do is identify these weak spots and compensate for them using slots with certain card choices. I am very open for critics here.

I could see this list splash black for BoB's. Just like the Ranger GW beats did after a while. Or even try to use Ranger's again with some crazy new tech. The main difference is the acceleration and the 16 hatebears from my previous design. Another big difference is that I am giving up versatility to get more consistency. But I believe that consistency creates the problem of 'dead' or let's call them 'redundant' cards. In this case we are talking about multiple legends or even Aven, in short abilities that don't stack. However, this issue can creatively be solved, I am pretty sure of that, but need to think out of the box. The Bazaar GW beats list of credmond (aka col_impact) is a very good example of this cycling (and generating card advantage while doing so). I told him that the Bazaar route is his work, and he should continue to do so. I will look into other options, preferably a creature (hence I talked about Mongrel in my previous post) that turns those dead cards into value.

There are 22 cards that I started of with, which I consider untouchable to stay loyal to this concept I launched.

4 Gaddock, 4 Aven, 4 Thalia, 4 Kataki, 4 Path to Exile, 2 Swords to Plowshares

Why 6 spot removal? Kymagicplayer, You noted in your post that you lost to creature decks. Draw your conclusions... It is actually simple enough, you run a lot of threats and answers versus non-creature spells, but you aren't particularly strong versus problematic creatures or just aggro in general.

Now the question is, how do we get these champs into play asap? Do we still want a turn 1 Noble? Or do we run full acceleration? Spirit Guides? Something must be used in order to START NETTING VIRTUAL CARD ADVANTAGE ASAP from these bears. Gaddock likes to get in play BEFORE a second island because Gush exists. Thalia likes to get in play before second island because of Mana drain. You don't mind Force of Will, you respect its existence and design to play through it (another reason to run the full 4x package).

I understand the comments, feedback and critics. What I don't understand is why most people just stop thinking after they say 'oh 4x is too much, it should be 3x max'. There are some accepted norms, agreed, but did someone really try to explore outside of the boundaries? Is there really no way, out of all the cards printed so far, to fix these issues? Also note that half of the time your opponent fixes this legend problem in your place. Therefore, the goal here is not to add an entire set of cards just to fix this issue, but it might be wise to dedicate an adequate number of slots to keep things smooth in the deck.


@Kymagicplayer: I have no idea what list you are talking about.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #105 on: April 16, 2012, 11:04:37 PM »


Drawing cards is important though. If there was a GW equivalent of a Dark Confidant you would play it in a heartbeat and it would be the best card in the deck. Drawing cards keeps the threats coming and is critical to the decks ability to survive sweepers like Perish.
But there is no GW equivalent on confidant, not by a long shot. So you can play worse card draw engines, like selkie, or ignore it all together.

True but on this subject this might have a future !! Looking forward for someone to break it in GW (because with Emrakul & Mutavault is the obvious synergy already identified)!



Wow!! Very powerful, but needs a lot of work, and expensive. But still, its like vial+confidant. Will be tinkering.
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imRauSch
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« Reply #106 on: April 17, 2012, 06:25:20 AM »

What are your thoughts on this:
http://mtgsalvation.com/avacyn-restored-spoiler.html#5901 (Cavern of Souls)

Looks pretty powerful to me : >
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #107 on: April 17, 2012, 07:35:09 AM »

Seems good. The creature type requirement does restrict it quite a bit, doesn't seem to fit into GW as built.

Still mana fixing and uncounterability are effects one likes to have.
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Guli
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« Reply #108 on: April 18, 2012, 04:14:29 AM »

Actually it is not even close to Vial. Vial is good because it is an artifact for just 1 mana, coming down before drain, wires, spheres are up. And with Vial, you don't cast anything, making the spell immune to any counter magic or counter effects.

Dark Confidant is only 2 mana and you are not going to die from a BoB in a GW beat deck. BoB is way better and reliable.

This card looks interesting at best. I agree that Mutavault does make it pretty nice. But at what stage of the game are we anyway then? You should have put down threats and mana anyway. So will you start adding BIG creatures in a GW shell? Or are we talking about a totally new deck build around this new card?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 04:20:26 AM by Guli » Logged

bax
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« Reply #109 on: April 18, 2012, 05:33:29 AM »

Actually it is not even close to Vial. Vial is good because it is an artifact for just 1 mana, coming down before drain, wires, spheres are up. And with Vial, you don't cast anything, making the spell immune to any counter magic or counter effects.

Dark Confidant is only 2 mana and you are not going to die from a BoB in a GW beat deck. BoB is way better and reliable.

This card looks interesting at best. I agree that Mutavault does make it pretty nice. But at what stage of the game are we anyway then? You should have put down threats and mana anyway. So will you start adding BIG creatures in a GW shell? Or are we talking about a totally new deck build around this new card?
Guli i find talking to you very difficult as you often drift the conversation away from the subject by using arguments not relevant to the conversation - i give you two examples:

Obviously this does not compare with Vial - Vial comes down with 1 but is blocked by Stony Silence. Obviously in a Vial deck (without Stony) i would not play this. In a Stony deck i would not play Vial .... if you have problem with agreeing with this then we better stop this discussion here.

How do you get Bob fitting into a GW without making it become a different deck - possibly GWb ?

So both your examples are not applicable because they do not apply to a GW deck running Stony Silence.

Finally - on top of being not applicable arguments they are also misleading as none of Vial nor Bob do what this card do, but Vial or Stony do one or the other of the two effects this card do.

This new card gives you a card more and make it cast for no mana cost. So its effect is the SUM of bob and vial in a deck that run Stony Silence and do not ruin the manabase with Black.

(lets leave the Mutavult case out of GW discussion)

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Guli
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« Reply #110 on: April 18, 2012, 05:42:03 AM »

I was responding to Blue Lotus by saying this card is not what he said it is. You should read better AND yes you can just splash BoB's in GW without much changes...
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bax
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« Reply #111 on: April 18, 2012, 05:52:00 AM »

I was responding to Blue Lotus by saying this card is not what he said it is. You should read better AND yes you can just splash BoB's in GW without much changes...
Point is that Blue Lotus is spot on.
To do what this card does alone under certain cricumstances - you would need both Vial and Bob in a different deck.

As said he was spot on, this does alone what you would need Bob + Vial !
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Guli
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« Reply #112 on: April 18, 2012, 06:54:57 AM »

I think a lot of you guys are dead off' often enough that it is disturbing even me, an outside of the box thinking guy that tries to innovate and be creative.I notice this "Vulcan " attitude towards me. Not everything is logical in this game guys, and not everything you guys assume is right either. A lot of times I just refrain from posting because I don't want to play that role of constantly correcting unrealistic posts. I feel like talking to a wall too, just as you feel that way as you stated. But I really wonder what the skill level is of the blue, shop, dredge opponents you guys face. I practically play daily online, and get in a lot of game situations with a lot of different cards against competent players. You are hearing the conclusions of those games when I post, not my own invention of hypothetical stuff. So from my point of view, when I read some of your posts that I think are 'dead off', your credibility does not increase. I never raised my voice in this matter (to prevent de-motivation and keep things cool) , but I have hear some posters on this site do raise their voice by telling me I am off and wrong and so on. So now, you are all hearing it, if you do not trust my conclusions, I invite those who have doubts to come online and play some games. There are examples of people who did this from the TMD forums and they have surely changed their perspective after doing so.

You know what I think and sense, a lot of experimental idea's and 'questionable' card choices and approaches are being dismissed far too easily. I can NOT blame people for this attitude because it is much safer to bring along those Jaces and FoW to an event. (even as a fish/beatdown player you can go midrange bant and still have a strong deck with those powerfull broken blue stuff) People don't have the time, energy and resources to test a lot and find the reality of every single card in depth. So what do we do? We have some set of criteria of playability for the Eternal format. And this is good and necessary, but these criteria are not the same for everybody, and act like guidelines most of the time. However, one should be aware that these guidelines are not facts and do not apply every time, in most cases they do though.

My 'guidelines' and intuition says that Descendants' Path would probably not cut it in competitive vintage. I have been writing about GWx and playing tournaments with various versions these past weeks. I opened up an entire thread about GWb to splash BoB's. You can even CHOOSE right now, to play GWbob with vials or with stony.

1. This is the list that I used in the TMD invitationals: (I would probably change some things about NOW but I can't during the tourney)

Vial GWbob with Rangers


4 Scryb Ranger
4 Noble Hierarch
3 AEther Vial
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Mikaeus, the Lunarch
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
2 Savannah
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Verdant Catacombs
4 Qasali Pridemage
3 Aven Mindcensor
3 Leonin Relic-Warder
4 Dark Confidant
1 Bayou
1 Scrubland
3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Ghost Quarter
SB: 4 Tormod's Crypt
SB: 3 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Kataki, War's Wage
SB: 3 Ravenous Trap

I opted for Vial when I decided I was going for black for BoB's but had to reconfiger the creature base (Relics vs shop and Canonist vs Ritual)

2. In my description there is a Stony builds with Rangers/GSZ without black splash.


I am sure a GW Stony deck with BoB's is possible too.

In fact that, right now, I am working on a pure GW hate bear (see a couple post earlier) and I am considering to add BoB to the list of Teeg, Aven, Kataki and Thalia. So maybe after all that work, I am finally ending up with an explosive version with ESG and strong 2 drops fuelled by BoB's. Does this sounds logical?

So I am playing around a lot with the configuration and colours, and I think this leads to some misunderstanding when I post something... I should always put a decklist as a reference when I make a post about something. I will try to do so in the future.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2012, 07:00:16 AM by Guli » Logged

StanleyAugust
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« Reply #113 on: April 18, 2012, 07:32:58 AM »

Guli:

I would be interested in a tournament report. Is it possible?
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imRauSch
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« Reply #114 on: April 18, 2012, 07:51:26 AM »

This new land looks promising because it drastically solves one of the decks biggest problems, namely counter spells.
The fact that only a removal spell is able to deal with a turn 1 hatebear is like a wet dream to me. Be it Thalia or Arbiter, if they immediately come down you just screw so many hands against blue. The only disadvantage is of course the variety of creature types among the hate legends but that feels like something which can be worked out by adjusting the mana base accordingly and is outweighed by its utility.
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Guli
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« Reply #115 on: April 18, 2012, 08:27:40 AM »

This new land looks promising because it drastically solves one of the decks biggest problems, namely counter spells.
The fact that only a removal spell is able to deal with a turn 1 hatebear is like a wet dream to me. Be it Thalia or Arbiter, if they immediately come down you just screw so many hands against blue. The only disadvantage is of course the variety of creature types among the hate legends but that feels like something which can be worked out by adjusting the mana base accordingly and is outweighed by its utility.
Yes I agree

I have been trying to solve this issue of getting through your first bomb and now there is a land that does this.

Turn 1: Cavern of Souls, Elvish Spirit > Gaddock Teeg
Turn 2: tap Cavern of Souls, tap Savannah/Plains > Thalia

This line most likely wins the game against blue with FoW/Mana Drain and Gush/Jace.

This means they will have to play more removal, which worries me actually ... Thank god Shop is still around to punish specific GW mass removal that blue can maindeck. It will be interesting..
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #116 on: April 18, 2012, 09:09:02 AM »

I believe I said descendant's path is a conditional, expensive card LIKE vial + bob rolled into one. It's biggest problem is that is doesn't guarantee you will draw an extra card. This makes it a 3 mana do-nothing which no one wants.


I am sure a GW Stony deck with BoB's is possible too.

Can you explain why you write dark confidant like 'BoB'? I can't be the only one who completely doesn't understand this.
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Guli
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« Reply #117 on: April 18, 2012, 09:21:35 AM »

I rather explain how broken Cavern will be Smile
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xouman
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« Reply #118 on: April 18, 2012, 10:35:37 AM »

Dark Confidant is called Bob after its creator, Bob Maher. Dark confidant was an invitational card. Searching for "dark confidant bob maher" will give more info Wink


BTW, cavern looks awesome in this deck. Against control is brutal, against MUD and mirror fixes the manabase, and evades chalice. Limits the use of multiple color non-creature spells (as abolish, if payed), but it is a house.

Prepare for bouncers, massacre,  pyroclasm, sower, razormane... creature's times are coming.
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Blue Lotus
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« Reply #119 on: April 18, 2012, 10:55:28 AM »

No no everyone knows that. Why does he style it 'BoB.' Repeatedly.

Just seems like a lot of work to me.
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