TheManaDrain.com
November 23, 2014, 05:02:46 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1]
  Print  
Author Topic: Gitaxian Long  (Read 5741 times)
Ego_Sum
Basic User
**
Posts: 49


View Profile Email
« on: May 19, 2011, 11:15:10 AM »

New Phyrexia left us all a collection of jewels for vintage, one of those jewels as some already know, is Gitaxian Probe. I' ve been always a huge fan of the storm archetype and since I saw this card just thought that something useful can be done, and the archetype that can take better profit from it is IMO the Long decks. With this in mind I built a deck to be played and tested during the BoM 5 vintage trial, and for being a deck in the very beta stages I m not disatisfied, neither super satisfied with the performace (4-2 scoop, losing to MUD as expected and Oath, not so expected but a trap from a JAR bought him the game).

Here I'll post my two versions of the deck "4C Gitaxian Long" and "U/B Gitaxian Long", though I think the latter will be better for orur metagame, the former has some pieces that are extremely useful, but the crappy mana base make it almost unplayable in the Power MUD metagame. In BoM I tried the 4C version


"Gitaxian Long 4C"


Mana (27)

4x City of Brass
4x Forbidden Orchard
1x Gemstone Mine
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
5x Moxen

4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual

Protection (4)

4x Force of Will

Cantrips & Co. (8)

4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Ponder
1x Brainstorm

Bounce (2)

1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Chain of Vapor

Tutor (6)

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Grim Tutor
1x Praetor's Grasp (or maybe the second Grim Tutor)

Bussiness (10)

1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Wheel of Fortune
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x TimeTwister
1x Windfall
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Mind's Desire

WinCon (2)

2x Tendrils of Agony
1x Blightsteel Colossus (it should be the 11th land or a mana producer, Colossus was very underwhelming in the go off turn, and not a real solution with the new Metamoprph everywhere)

Sideboard 15

3x Gemstone Mine
4x Oath of Druids
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Thorn
1x Dragon Breath
1x Hurkyl's Recall
4x Xantid Swarm
1x Pithing Needle (there should be a second one...)

"Gitaxian Long UB"


Mana (27)

4x Polluted Delta
3x Underground Sea
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
5x Moxen

4x Dark Ritual
3x Cabal Ritual

Protection (6)

4x Force of Will
2x Duress

Cantrips & Co. (8)

4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Ponder
1x Brainstorm

Bounce (2)

1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Chain of Vapor

Tutor (6)

1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Grim Tutor
1x Praetor's Grasp (or a second Grim Tutor)


Bussiness (9)

1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x TimeTwister
1x Windfall
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Mind's Desire

WinCon (2)

2x Tendrils of Agony

I have 2 sideboards to be tested:

A - Sideboard 15

2x Island
2x Swamp
3x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
2x Steel Sabotage
3xChain of Vapor
2x Mental Misstep (against remoras, basically)


B - Sideboard 15

2x Island
2x Swamp
3x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
2x Steel Sabotage
4x Dark Confidant
1x Echoing truth

The 2 sideboards are 2 different approaches to beat remoras, I' m not sure which will be more efficient, I'll be glad if the old long players (Mastriano, for instance) can help me deciding this.

I feel like the deck is lacking at least one extra mana surce this is why I thought to do loke this:

Main deck:

-1x Duress

+1x Blue Fetchland

Either sidebord:

-1x Island

+1x Duress

I know mst may think that a TPS approach can be better to defeat MUD, but for my expirience with TPS it seems that TPS has some problems defeating Gush, and this is because they have a better counterwall, better drawing engine and similar Raw Power to us, while Long is faster and this gives it the edge against Gush. In the end I decided to make it more Longish just because I was cutting one of the 3 bad match ups (TPS: Remora, MUD, Gush against Long: Remora, MUD)

Also though on Misdirection instead of Duress but Misdirection is quite awful against Mindbreaktrap, and Duress just does the dirty job.

Finally do you think it would be a good idea to change Ponder with a Thirst for Knowledge to have a second "brainstorm effect" ?

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Logged
Mr. Type 4
Creator of Type 4
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 804


Creator of Type 4 - Discoverer of Steve Menendian


View Profile WWW
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2011, 12:27:37 PM »

The first thing I thought when I looked at this list is 4 lands seems like a lot to play in the SB - maybe you should just make room for another land or two main instead.  prob dont need 3 Cabal Ritual, I;d prob cut one for a land.  I see that you've kind of come to a similar conclusion.  I think I like the Dark Confidant sideboard the best assuming people really play Remora decks in your meta.

The Dredge match-up looks weak.  It appears you hope to dodge it.

Is Thoughtseize too damageing to think about playing over Duress?  I think Seize is prob better in the less suicidal UB version.

I dont see anything wrong with your lists, other than looking a bit mana light. 

Sooooo you say you've played the 4C version (and maybe tested the UB version?) but you havent really commented on how G-Probe plays in the deck.  Is it the nuts? Is it underwhelming?  Should it be just be Preordain?

Have you considered Personal Tutor?  Seems like P-Tutuor gets a lot better with Probe.
 
Logged

2008 VINTAGE CHAMPION
2013 NYSE OPEN I CHAMPION
Team Meandeck

Mastriano's the only person I know who can pick up chicks and win magic tournaments at the same time.
Ego_Sum
Basic User
**
Posts: 49


View Profile Email
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2011, 12:52:53 PM »

Thanks for the early answer.

It is low on lands I know but this sacrifice seems that have to be done in order to overrun other "comboish" decks (specially Gush, but also those Turbotezz growing in pooularity). I wanted to keep it tight so I can side them in the second game if needed against heavy denial decks like MUD or some kind of Rod Fish, but the latter are not that hard to deal with, and even easier with the chain of vapor side version).

Against Dredge the idea is to race them. is not that difficult, truly, maybe I0m too confident on that but as far as I played a single Fow/misstep do the job pretty efficiently. Nevertheless having more side slots will make my dredge pairing better, but I'm not sure if I do have to care about it, this deck goes off 1st second turn comfortably if unmolested.

Thoughtseize is a pain combined with Probe and pain tutors, I tested them but didn't make a big difference since normally they take care of irrelevant cards, or cards that I can deal with later, and the 2 life hurts as I said.

Gitaxian Probe is rock and roll, but in long version not in the TPS-ish ones where I think Preordain is by far better. GP makes Top tutors incredibly powerful, and maybe you are right about Personal Tutor (another cheap Will tutor seems good, the only problem is taht it cannot be played off rituals, which is the weakes point of the deck, the blue mana, this is why preordain didn0t make the cut, even ponder hurts a lot and this is why I asked for opinions about Thirst for knowledge and the main reason is being INSTANT).

About the manabase, as said in the original post I think it will stay like this:

Lands 11

3x Undegrounbd sea
1x Island
1x Swamp
4x Polluted Delta
1x Blue Fetch
1x Tolarian Academy

Cutting 1x Duress (going to the side maybe, replacing an Island)

SO you prefer the Bobby side... don't you think Chain of Vapor is more flexible and has better sinergy with the whole deck; I mean that Bob is the nuts if you play it first turn (which is not difficult) or maybe second, beyond that he is a crappy topdeck and horrible if going off with D7, Necro or Bargain. Maybe I' m wrong... Also the CoV allows me to add the missteps which seems more than decent against a very broad field of decks. Despite I'm defending the CoV side I'm not sure, by now, which to play (maybe if you have told me that the CoV side was better I' d argumentet the opposite, but this is not to neglect your opiniion but to open a reasonable debate so we can find which one can be better for the build).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
« Last Edit: May 19, 2011, 12:57:54 PM by Ego_Sum » Logged
Zieby
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 256


One who goes unpunished, never learns.

ajjbos@hotmail.com ajjbos
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2011, 07:01:00 AM »

Hi Inaki,

I like your list and it is close to the list I played in my last tournament.
Please see below list with the small tweaks I made.

// Maindeck
Mana (28)
4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
2x Island
2x Swamp
1x Blue fetch
1x Tolarian Academy

1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
5x Moxen

4x Dark Ritual
2x Cabal Ritual

Protection (7)
4x Force of Will
3x Duress

Cantrips & Co. (8)
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Ponder
1x Brainstorm

Bounce (2)
2x Hurkyl's Recall

Tutor (5)
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Grim Tutor

Bussiness (9)
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x TimeTwister
1x Windfall
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Mind's Desire

WinCon (1)
1x Tendrils of Agony

First, I don't think a second ToA is required with all the draw and Tutors within this deck.
If a second win condition is required I would choose BSC before I would place a second copy of ToA in the deck.
I Also believe that you want as much protection as possible game 1 against shops, therefore I replaced the Chain of Vapor with a second H-Recall.
For the Mana base I believe 12 lands are a minimum to have with 2 extra in the board. If you want to play 3x Cabal then I would cut Mana Vault for the third Cabal.

The only thing I do not know is, if the 4 GP are required, otherwise I would replace 1 with a Praetor's Grasp.
grasp gives you also an out to Teeg or Meddling Mage as you can fetch a StP.

// Sideboard
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Steel Sabotage
3x Dark Confidant
2x Echoing truth
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Nihil spellbomb
1x Free spot

The SB is very straight forward anti Shop, with 11 cards to board against Shop.
I know this strategy is working looking at my own testing, it is still hard, but works overall.
2x Truth and BSC against Fish, Spellbomb against the Mirror and dredge and one slot you can fill with something you like.

I hope you like the suggestions I made and would like to hear your thoughts on the tweaks.
Nice to see that not all people have left the Darkside…….

Greetings Arjan
Logged

Quote from:  Mr. Chapin
"Rogue is spelled with the "g" before the "u." Rouge is a cosmetic used to color the cheeks and emphasize the cheekbones.
Rogue is a deck that isn't mainstream/widely played."

Member of Team R&D: Go beyond Synergy and enter Poetry

Founder of "The Dutch Vintage Tournament Series"
Mr. Type 4
Creator of Type 4
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 804


Creator of Type 4 - Discoverer of Steve Menendian


View Profile WWW
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2011, 08:45:06 AM »

I'm pretty surprised from Zieby's signature to see that he's from Europe - his list seems tuned to play in the American metagame that I'm familiar with, while Inaki's list seems more European.  Zieby has 2x Hurkyl's Main and 11 Shop SB cards - that's some serious Shop hate!

Ultimately the two lists are very close. 

Quote
If a second win condition is required I would choose BSC before I would place a second copy of ToA in the deck.
I tend to agree.  When you need to make cuts from the deck, the second Tendrils is really redundant a lot of the time.  I'd rather have another Duress.

Quote
// Sideboard
1x Island
1x Swamp
2x Hurkyl's Recall
3x Steel Sabotage
3x Dark Confidant
2x Echoing truth
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Nihil spellbomb
1x Free spot
Is E-Truth better than CoV?

Quote
The only thing I do not know is, if the 4 GP are required, otherwise I would replace 1 with a Praetor's Grasp.
grasp gives you also an out to Teeg or Meddling Mage as you can fetch a StP.
In game 1.  they'll prob side out STP for game 2.

Quote
SO you prefer the Bobby side... don't you think Chain of Vapor is more flexible and has better sinergy with the whole deck; I mean that Bob is the nuts if you play it first turn (which is not difficult) or maybe second, beyond that he is a crappy topdeck and horrible if going off with D7, Necro or Bargain. Maybe I' m wrong... Also the CoV allows me to add the missteps which seems more than decent against a very broad field of decks. Despite I'm defending the CoV side I'm not sure, by now, which to play (maybe if you have told me that the CoV side was better I' d argumentet the opposite, but this is not to neglect your opiniion but to open a reasonable debate so we can find which one can be better for the build).
Hard to say without testing, that's just my impression of the overall SB plan. I felt like the Bob sideboard plan was more versatile because you could side Bob against a number of decks.  I also thought the all bounce sideboard might be overkill - if you side in 13 cards, what coes out?
Logged

2008 VINTAGE CHAMPION
2013 NYSE OPEN I CHAMPION
Team Meandeck

Mastriano's the only person I know who can pick up chicks and win magic tournaments at the same time.
personalbackfire
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 358


personalbackfire
View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2011, 10:12:26 AM »

I tested a slightly different version of the deck last night against Expresso Stax.
List for reference:

4x Polluted Delta
2x Underground Sea
3x Island
2x Swamp
1x Scalding Tarn
1x Black Lotus
1x Mana Crypt
1x Mana Vault
1x Sol Ring
1x Lotus Petal
5x Moxen
4x Dark Ritual
1x Cabal Ritual
4x Force of Will
4x Gitaxian Probe
1x Time Walk
1x Ancestral Recall
1x Ponder
1x Brainstorm
4x Preordain
1x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
1x Chain of vapor
1x Mystical Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Necropotence
1x Yawgmoth's Bargain
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Memory Jar
1x Tinker
1x TimeTwister
1x Merchant Scroll
1x Gifts Ungiven
1x Mind's Desire
1x Blightsteel Colossus
1x Tendrils of Agony

Although  ending up even or slightly uneven in game ones played, the deck felt weak and a bad version of regular TPS. It could be because I have a lack of Grim Tutors/Cabal Rituals to go with them, but in general Grim Tutor is pretty bad against Workshops, so I don't think it makes a ton of sense to run them currently.

I decided to not test an Academy since I wanted to see if having a 3rd Island would make a difference, since 12 Lands is still kind of risky in my opinion. In at least one game, fetching for the 3rd Island was relevant, just not sure if in general it would be better as the Academy.

For me it seems like you have 3 Cards competing for 2 Cards worth of slots. Those being: Duress, Preordain, and Probe.

I might like Preordain more than most but as a cantrip it is better than Probe, and as a disruption spell Duress is clearly superior. I guess the question comes is running Probe and Duress better than Preordain and Duress, but I would hazard a guess as no. Preordain helps smooth out some of the awkward hands that you can get with deck, while probe is more of a making your deck smaller, with the added benefit of knowing what to play around.

I guess another option, which has been brought up is if running less probe would be a good thing. Maybe 3 Duress, 3 Preordain, 2 Probe would be a good way to go about it, I am not sure. I remember in the later days of Gws long, Street Wraith went from being a 4 of, to a 2 or 1 of.

I also don't really see any reason not to run Preordain in any kind of Ritual deck, TPS style or long.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2011, 10:15:05 AM by personalbackfire » Logged
Mr. Type 4
Creator of Type 4
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 804


Creator of Type 4 - Discoverer of Steve Menendian


View Profile WWW
« Reply #6 on: May 20, 2011, 11:36:05 AM »

Quote
I decided to not test an Academy since I wanted to see if having a 3rd Island would make a difference, since 12 Lands is still kind of risky in my opinion. In at least one game, fetching for the 3rd Island was relevant, just not sure if in general it would be better as the Academy.
I'd almost def run Academy.  It's a nice shot-in the arm of mana production sometimes which really helps, especially for Blue manas.  It's good enough to have included in Gifts piles a number of times so i'd consider it 95% essential. 

I'd probably not play Chain of Vapor in that list because you have such an intense liability to Chalice=1 that I'd want all of my removal cards to be at a different cost. 

Quote
Although  ending up even or slightly uneven in game ones played, the deck felt weak and a bad version of regular TPS. It could be because I have a lack of Grim Tutors/Cabal Rituals to go with them, but in general Grim Tutor is pretty bad against Workshops, so I don't think it makes a ton of sense to run them currently.
It seems like Dark Ritual as a pillar is an underdog against worshop game 1, which is why these sideboards are tuned so heavily to face Shop (even with it being less of the meta in Europe than it is here) and why I dont play them much anymore. 

Quote
For me it seems like you have 3 Cards competing for 2 Cards worth of slots. Those being: Duress, Preordain, and Probe.
At this point you prob need to consider Gush, too.  Gush seems like it might just do a lot more than probe.  I understand that adding Gush moves this deck in a very different direction, but it seems important to compare it to that standard when determining how competitive this archtype is in general.


Logged

2008 VINTAGE CHAMPION
2013 NYSE OPEN I CHAMPION
Team Meandeck

Mastriano's the only person I know who can pick up chicks and win magic tournaments at the same time.
Ego_Sum
Basic User
**
Posts: 49


View Profile Email
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2011, 04:04:29 PM »

It seems like most of you agree with 12 lands + 1 single ToA.

Well, I don't know but playing with 12 lands seems a lot, I mean I' ve been playing TPS wiht this shell in the past and I lost lots of games just for "flooding", this is why I prefer to run them in the side so I can use them only in the pairing I need them (here in barcelona we have lots of fish, but also lots of blue decks, and not so many MUD, Fish is not a bad Pairing because the raw Power of the deck, you can outmaneuver them with the speed, blue decks do not touch my mana base, normally, and against MUD I can side the land pack), the thing is taht testing told me that 11 lands seems good adding 3 when siding if needed.

About the ToA I tested it, but I lost some games for running only one, specially games when I resolved an early necro that didn't brought me enough bussiness for the first 10 cards or so. I think 2nd ToA gives too much flexibility, it is also very good when you play Mind's desire or Bargain, and it seems even more important if I play the Confidant side (in fact with the confidant side I will for sure play 2, otherwise I may though on it...).

Paul, echoing is in there to be added against remoras and aggro, along with confidants. I prefer it over CoV so they can 't bounce Bob back.

Personalbackfire, it seems that your decklist is more TPSish, which means that tries to set up a little and go off more carefully than the deck I posted. for a deck like that I definitely prefer Preordain, but not for a more "pure" long deck (though I know the differences are very light, there are still some).

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Logged
Ego_Sum
Basic User
**
Posts: 49


View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2011, 07:18:30 AM »

Hi guys I' ve made some "insane" twists with the list. They are moved towards faster developement of your game. show what I did and discuss after:

"Tutor Long"

Maindeck 60

4x Polluted Delta
1x Flooded Strand
1x Verdant Catacombs
3x Underground sea
1x Island
1x Swamp

4x Moxen (2 on color mandatory and 2 extra)
1x Blak Lotus
1x lotus Petal

4x Dark ritual
3x Cabal Ritual

4x Gitaxian Probe
4x Street Wraith

1x Gush
1x Brainstorm
1x Ancestral Recall

3x Personal Tutor
2x Grim Tutor
1x Demonic Tutor
1x Vampiric Tutor
1x Imperial Seal
1x Mystical Tutor

1x Tendrils of Agony
1x Blightsteel Colossus

1x Time Walk
1x Tinker
1x Doomsday
1x Yawgmoth's Will
1x Timetwister

4x Force of Will
3x Duress

1x Chain of Vapor
1x Hurkyl's Recall

As you can see is a different approach for the same purppose.

The main differences:

Mana base: is lighter than it used to be, but this is according the changes of the whole deck, as you can see the CMC has been lowered a lot and no is color intensive, because of this extra moxen and Crypt/Ring were usless most of the time. I may agree that maybe another last land (one extra underground) maybe added in substitution of a single Street Wraith (but street wraith allows awesome plays that gitaxian didn0tl, explain later).

The bombs: after playign a lot of TPS and standard Long bomb package (Necro, Bargain, Desire, ...) I felt that most of them where too random, one of the reasons that enfrced me to play 2x Tendrils, by focusing the deck and playing the bombs I' ve chosen makes the going off turn a lot more deterministic and is almost impossible to fizzle (see that timetwister is not here to be played blindly but to make some interesting Doomsday piles with it, specially pass the turn piles).Note that the bombs are sorcery, all of them, so Personal Tutor can fetch them. The bombs of Choice are:

-Tinker: playing 3 Personal tutor seemed stupid not to play it. With the fetching power of the deck is not difficult to set the Tinker + Tinwalk trick to make an easy win.

-Yawgmoth Will: I' m afraid tht no explanation is needed for the most powerful time ever printed in MtG.

-Doomsday: you can think of it as another top tutor only that more powerful, it leads to incredibly fast kills (t1 kill is not strange with doomsday), and it provides some flexible piles to fight through hate (you can add councers or spot removal to deal with the hate pieces).

-Timetwister: as always a nice panic button, but here it shines a little bit more so it can make nice pass the turn piles or can generate extra storm in some random in turn pile if needed. You can go infinite with doomsday and Twsiter (well not infinite because you lose lifes at every loop, but I guess taht if I think of it a little ore deeply I could find a pile using ToA in the middle of it for infinite loops, though I don't know it yet).

The addition of Gush is a must also for the doomsday piles, so is not as random as it seems.

On personal Tutor: as I said before and you could figure out this card is extremely good in this build, not only because it fetches the bombs, but also can go for protection (duress) or the Tendrils. All this for the ridiculous amount of 1 blue mana!.

Sideboard 15:

3x Mental Misstep
3x Dark Confidant
3x Hurkyl's Recall
1x Rebuild
1x Island
1x Swamp
1x Chain of Vapor
2x Yixlid Jailer

-Mental Misstep: stops every single side hate hcard that can bother us. I'll make an small list of the relevant card misstep stops for free: Duress/Thoughtseize, Nihil Spellbomb, Mystic Remora, Pyroblast/Red elemental blast, Dispel, Spell Pierce, ... and a lot more. It also deals with some of the metagame staple power cards: Ancestral recall,  Mystical/Vampiric Tutor, Imperial Seal, Fastbond, Sensei's Divining Top, Voltaic Key, Swords to Plowshares (to protect the colossus and Confidants), all the anti hate Dredge cards,... And once again its cost is ridiculous.

-Dark Confidant: this guy shines in all the pairings that are slower than us. He is specially good against remora decks and blue non-gush control decks. Sometimes you may side him in aswell against fish aswell (specially against blue fish so you win them but simply overdrawing, against non-blue fish he is worst, well not worst but not needed since you will have no problem to win by resolving any of your anti hate cards without fear to be countered).

-The anit MUD package: you all can guess why I play this

-Chain of vapor: this slot is discussed with Slaughter Pact. Wile the latter is very strong combined with Doomsday, the foremr is far more flexible and also helps in the remora match-up (reason that made me decide for it). I' ve also thought on Virtue's Ruin because it's a sorcery and deals with every single hate-bear in the format.

-Yixlid Jailer: I have very few room for dredge and because of this I decided to play the hardest hate card that can be plyed in a number lower than  a playset (I wish I had room for 4x Leylines of the Void which are specially good with Missteps in the board, but I haven't). I prefer him over Tormod's effects because he is permanent and the oppoenent cannot play arround him, he needs to get rid of him. And I prefer it over the Needle because the needle is the softest hate agaisnt dredge (though it is also more versatile).

What do you think of this new approach?

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 07:22:07 AM by Ego_Sum » Logged
Daenyth
Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 432


shadowblack379
View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2011, 11:58:22 AM »

Interesting build. Have you tested much vs mud and fish variants? With so many pain cards, how does your life total do? Chalice@1 seems quite bad for you also.

With so many cantrips (counting probe/wraith here), do you run into problems with drawing your BSC?
Logged

Team #olddrafts4you -- losing games since 2004
serracollector
Basic User
**
Posts: 1137

serracollector@hotmail.com
View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2011, 12:06:36 PM »

Some thoughts on the UB list:

1) I think 2 ToA + TinkerBot is needed.  I have been seeing more and more lists running 4 x Preator's Grips, and if 1 gets off, they just need to take your ToA, then its just needing to counter a tinker or bounce/steal/kill your bot.

2)  If you sideboard Dark confidant, you should also SB Cabal Therapy instead of Duress/TS.  Probe + Cabal is sick, and cabal can simply name what you "need" to be removed g2-g3 even without Probe (aka, Force, Sphere, Oath, etc, etc) and can be flashbacked saccing the Confidants for that +2 storm if needed.  Probe (for 2 life) + Cabal + confidant on board to sac is 3+ for 1 CA +3 storm and should easily clear their hand of whatever you need to remove to go off that turn.

My 2 cents, nice work.
Logged

B/R discussions are not allowed outside of Vintage Issues, and that includes signatures.
Ego_Sum
Basic User
**
Posts: 49


View Profile Email
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2011, 02:37:03 AM »

Interesting build. Have you tested much vs mud and fish variants? With so many pain cards, how does your life total do? Chalice@1 seems quite bad for you also.

With so many cantrips (counting probe/wraith here), do you run into problems with drawing your BSC?

TBH I played a lot of FIsh and MUD with Storm Combo, but not with this specific build, ao I can't give you any tested info about it (I played, but very few to take conclusions). Though with fisha always happens the same you can just overrun them with the raw power of the cards you play, even if they have a clock you normally get there faster (no matter how many life you waste, normallly in this kind of decks the more life you waste the nearest to victory you are...)

Serracollector: uf! If I see this Praetor's thing happening I'll re think about the second tendrils again, though I 've not suffered the same, and since I play no D7(apecially Jar), nor Mind's Desire, neither Necro/Bargain, I feel comfortable with my Single ToA + Colossus.

About therapy, Yes! I know they are a beast, in fact I played this shell last week for testing (main deck 4x Duress +2x Cabal therapy, therapy is gorgeous if played wtih duress and Probe, and confi in the side), but FoW seemed again too necessary so you can avoid unfair wins from the top. They main reason why I tried CT is because they are perfect to hit multiple Mindbreak traps stuck in my opponent's hand.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Logged
Mr. Type 4
Creator of Type 4
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 804


Creator of Type 4 - Discoverer of Steve Menendian


View Profile WWW
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2011, 10:28:48 AM »

I like Missteps in this Sideboard. I'm skeptical of how good Street Wraith is, but I guess he never gets stopped by Chalice 1 or spheres.

What's the typical DDay pile with Gush in it? I havent thought of this one yet...

Logged

2008 VINTAGE CHAMPION
2013 NYSE OPEN I CHAMPION
Team Meandeck

Mastriano's the only person I know who can pick up chicks and win magic tournaments at the same time.
Ego_Sum
Basic User
**
Posts: 49


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2011, 12:27:39 PM »

Gush is not for standard piles, but an option when you have a counter/duress war and became tap out, then it depends n how much storm you need but you can make somehting like:

Gush
Mana (ritual, lotus..)
Tendris
X
X

OR

Gush
mana (ritual, lotus)
Yawgmoth's will
Tandrils
X

(With the second one I asume you have a probe and a mana source or the possibility to replay the gush)

Otherwise any other standard pile made out of gush can be done with simplty ancestral.

For isntance:

Ritual/Lotus + Doomsday + Probe (2 lands, one untapped)

Ancestral
Petal
Lotus
Will
ToA

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Logged
Mr. Type 4
Creator of Type 4
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 804


Creator of Type 4 - Discoverer of Steve Menendian


View Profile WWW
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2011, 01:11:38 PM »

Quote
Otherwise any other standard pile made out of gush can be done with simplty ancestral.

For isntance:

Ritual/Lotus + Doomsday + Probe (2 lands, one untapped)

Ancestral
Petal
Lotus
Will
ToA
ok, that's what i was thinking, I just thought you maybe had a better pile that used all five slots and made a lot of storm.  I was thinking that making gush the top card instead of Ancestral could make DDay cost 0 mana after Doomsday if you have 2 islands with just a G-Probe or Wraith in hand.  I guess the pile:

Gush
Lotus
Yawg will
Tendrils
X

can make a respectable amount of storm if we cast DDay this turn.  It's way better if you go into it with gitaxian instead of Wraith.  Hmmmmmm

How about:

Gush
Lotus
G-Probe
Will
Tendrils

requires 4 life and another mana, although one that's not color-specific, and makes at least 7 storm (not counting Doomsday).  The life may be just too high to use this pile sometimes because we lose half when DDay and probably need to use Wraith or probe to start the pile off. 
Logged

2008 VINTAGE CHAMPION
2013 NYSE OPEN I CHAMPION
Team Meandeck

Mastriano's the only person I know who can pick up chicks and win magic tournaments at the same time.
emidln
Basic User
**
Posts: 428

emidln@hotmail.com Ace50003 brandonjadams
View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2011, 04:10:08 PM »

I was playing with probe in Long as well, but for slightly different reasons. The last few slots in the deck are pretty bad. I just didn't want to play Windfall, a 2nd bounce spell maindeck, etc and instead went for something that wasn't as painful. Probe lets you focus on the really busted parts of your deck while giving you often valuable information.

As far as the development towards the Tinker/DD deck go, what in particular makes this plan better than a more focused Doomsday list? The only thing that stands out in my mind would be that you might be able to get off a quick Tinker, but with so little artifact mana and so few lands, that doesn't seem realistic unless your plan is to have Force of Will in any game you play. Similarly, H.Recall seems pretty dead in the maindeck as an answer to Workshops.

If your gameplan against Workshops isn't going to be that useful, a straight Doomsday/Gush Storm deck featuring 4 Doomsday, 4 Gush, and 4 Probe will be almost as fast and pack more disruption. My issue with that deck is that, similar to this one, you don't really have enough lands or fast artifact mana to give Workshops serious contention unless your entire sideboard is composed of lands, fast mana, and some sort of equalizer (h.recall, rebuild, oath of druids, etc).

For what it's worth, that inability to tune Doomsday (which smashes enemy combo and blue decks pretty hard) to beat Workshops due to the mana situation brought me to Gitaxian Probe in Long (where I would ignore g1 and side in something like Oath + 4 lands and have a reasonable chance of having mana + tinker/oath).
Logged

BZK! - The Vintage Lightning War
Eastman
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 1045


Still trying to bring morphling back.


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: June 01, 2011, 11:26:38 PM »

With all the topdeck tutors and probe/wraith/preordain, why not run Lions Eye Diamond?  This might militate in favor of adding more duress but with topdeck tutors thinning your hand already, reducing reliance on FoW might not be a bad idea.
« Last Edit: June 01, 2011, 11:29:41 PM by Eastman » Logged

Team TMD
Gandalf_The_White_1
Basic User
**
Posts: 602



View Profile
« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2011, 08:09:56 PM »

I think Necro is too good to cut even if you stick with the Personal Tutor/Dday plan--it's one of the few bombs that you can leverage a win out of without needing other cards or resources.

That said, have you considered running some number of Enlightened Tutor?  If you need mana it gets Lotus or if you need business it gets Necro.
Logged

Quote from: The Atog Lord link
We have rather cyclic discussion, and I fully believe that someone so inclined could create a rather accurate computer program which could do a fine job impersonating any of us.
Ego_Sum
Basic User
**
Posts: 49


View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: June 15, 2011, 12:41:09 AM »

Necro is of course an option, though is not a sorcery plus with all the immolating cantrips the deck plays a not so early Necro can be quite narrow.

I' ve thought on Enlightened, but in a list with Bargain and Necro, and maybe Gush-Bond, white also provides some nice techs such as orim's chant (if I play Gush-Bond Xnatid seems superior, because it can be played comfortably under a resolved Remora) or Serenity (this is very good specially on a light on No solo moxen list). Though I try by all meanings keeping the deck in the minor number of spalshes as possible for mana consistency, this is not only to have natural resistance to mana denial but also to be able to play every spell at every time since the very early game.

Greetings,

Iñaki.-
Logged
Eastman
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 1045


Still trying to bring morphling back.


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2011, 10:17:56 AM »

Alright I have been testing my own list of Long.  I think even calling it "Gitaxian long" might send thoughts off in the wrong direction.  This should not be a deck centered around Gitaxian probe -- the reason we are running Gitaxian probe is because it theoretically makes all of the other more powerful cards better by increasing the likelihood of drawing them.  Thus while it is useful to play to Probe's advantages, I don't think the best Gitaxian Long deck is going to feature a lot of cards that complement probe, like personal tutor.  Rather, the best Gitaxian Long deck should really look just like the best non-Gitaxian Long deck, minus the 2-3 worst spells and 1-2 worst mana sources.

To that end, I have been working with a regular old fashioned Long list, with -FoF, -Grim Tutor, -1 (of 2) cabal ritual, and -1 land.

I think against anything except shops, Probe improves the deck by some incremental amount, 15% or so.  It helps on four levels, in decreasing order of importance here:

(1) Probe increases the likelihood of drawing better cards.  This is the most important point and the major theoretical one-- Probe allows you to run a 56 card deck.  It is easy to lose sight of this and think of Probe as taking a slot that can go to other things.  But that is wrong.  Probe essentially makes your deck 56 cards, increasing by 15% your chance of drawing on every draw one of the best cards in the game like lotus, ancestral, or demonic tutor.  

(2) the information probe provides is really, really useful.  I know some analysts say that great players already somehow know what is in their opponent's hands.  Well good for them.  The way I play Long, it is all about knowing when to go off -- do I push early and lose to a counter, or slow-play and have an uncounterable set of plays on turn 4/5?  Granted my vintage experience helps me to make educated guesses, but Probe let's you know.  In many cases where I would normally be hesitant to push something through without counter backup, Probe has told me there was no counter in my opponent's hand.  Simply put, Long is hard to play and reducing the variance in possible cards in your opponent's hand makes the analysis of what to do much easier.  

(3) Probe has awesome synergy with the topdeck tutors like mystical, seal, and vampiric.    

(4) While making your deck '56 cards', Probe adds to your storm count occassionally.  Especially with Mind's Desire and occassionally with Yawg Will/Tendrils this is relevant.  

The only downsides to probe are that it just slows you down against Shops.  However keep in mind that it will only do that to the extent that the cards you cut for Probe are good against resolved spheres.  So for instance, cutting FoF for a Probe obviously does not hurt your shop matchup at all.  On the other hand cutting a hard land for a probe will hurt your shop matchup.  And of course you should be cutting some land from a normal list when you go to 4 probes, because a 56 card deck requires only 14/15ths as much mana as a 60 card deck.  

Anyway long story short ( get it!) I think Probe is pretty good and improves Long.  But it isn't the nuts, it is an incremental improvement.  Moreover, I think you can cost yourself whatever gains it provides by adding otherwise suboptimal cards due to their perceived synergy with probe.  Sure personal tutor might have synergy with probe, but Gifts Ungiven has synergy with winning, all by itself. 

Here is my current list:

4 Gitaxian Probe

1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Mystical Tutor
1 Imperial Seal
1 Tinker
1 Memory Jar
1 Blightsteel Collossus
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Timetwister
1 Brainstorm
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
1 Merchant Scroll
1 Ponder (this is solidly on the bubble and should probably be cut, but what for?)
1 Yawgmoth's Will
1 Necropotence
1 Yawgmoth's Bargain
1 Mind's Desire
1 Gifts Ungiven

4 Thoughtseize
4 Force of Will
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild

27 Sources:
4 Dark Ritual
1 Cabal Ritual
5 Moxen
1 Sol Ring
1 Mana Crypt
1 Mana Vault
1 BLACK FREAKING LOTUS (so f'in good, I know that is obvious, but still, as vintage players we have to take a minute to get excited about lotus every once in awhile)
6 Fetches
2 Island
1 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
1 Tolarian Academy

Oh and it has been testing really well, like a normal storm deck but maybe slightly better.  Part of what I like about Long right now is not that Probe makes it 15% more powerful, but that it punishes the shift control decks have made towards slower cards like Dark Confidant and Planeswalkers.  
« Last Edit: July 21, 2011, 10:26:22 AM by Eastman » Logged

Team TMD
hitman
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 501

1000% SRSLY


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2011, 04:33:47 PM »

Ponder could be Lotus Petal.  Also, is Thoughtseize better than Duress in a deck with 4 Gitaxian Probe and a propensity to use life as a resource?  Are you often using it to grab Workshop creatures turn one or against Fish?  Would Duress be a fine replacement?
Logged
Eastman
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 1045


Still trying to bring morphling back.


View Profile
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2011, 11:04:00 AM »

Oh yah lotus petal is in there I just forgot it when writing up the list.  Cut a sea or a fetch for it.

I have to say I really like how this races gush and straight up punishes all the confidants, planes walkers, and ancient grudges in most drain decks. The hurkyls plan still works against shops too, especially with a lot of people cutting lock pieces for beaters.
Logged

Team TMD
Pages: [1]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.209 seconds with 20 queries.