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Author Topic: Null Rod Goblins  (Read 5923 times)
chalywong
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« on: January 25, 2011, 05:06:36 PM »

I'd like to start a new goblins thread because I believe it belongs in the null rod category.

My current list I used to top 8. First time with goblins.  I'll try to include some explanations on cards

Core: (I believe these 20 cards are nonnegotiable in a goblins build. Taking out any of these cards water down your clock immensely and ruins the over all synergy of the deck)
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Piledriver (even stronger against tidespout oath now because of his ability to just swing through for lethal)
4x Goblin Warchief
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Matron

Other goblins : 8 cards
2x earwig squad - removes oath targets, tinker targets, spot removal, vault/key, yawg will, sweepers.  He gets the job done but since it such a hostile environment for goblins it cannot be a major gameplan.
1x goblin tinkerer - anti-time vault, eats moxen and can suicide bomb a lodestone or karn
1x mogg war marshal - ive talked about the merits of this as a 1-of before.  sometimes you just need more goblins and he does it for super cheap
1x tin street hooligan - body + removal is always good.  Excellent tempo boost when combined with wasteland on t2.
1x gempalm incinerator - used to be 3x/4x but the number of targets has greatly been reduced but it is still useful as a un-counterable spot removal+card draw.

2x warren weirding - eliminates almost every problematic creature that can stand in your way although terrastadon and myr battlesphere to a lesser extent are still problematic

Non-Goblin cards : 8 cards (each card much be picked carefully because they water down ringleader draws and redundancy has to be used due to lack of card draw for non-goblin cards)

3x Null Rod - still the king of hate cards.  Now even better with a metalworker resurgence in the Northeastern US. Shuts off vault and must be dealt with a lot of the time buying you precious time to swing in the for win.
3x Pyrokinesis -  With more and more creatures floating around (welders, confidants, trygons, lodestones, karns),  this card becomes more and more profitable.  My take on goblins right now is to compete with other vintage decks that utilize 'free' spells (force of will) the only way to fight back is use 'free' spells of my own.
2x artifact mutation - just plain awesome against workshops especially because it creates an instant speed army.  Takes out other trouble artifacts and can stop vault wins although it pretty weak against oath in this regard.

Land and Mana : 24 cards
1x Black Lotus
1x Mox Ruby

5x Mountain (high number of basics is amazing vs stax/fish decks that rely heavy on wasteland to choke your mana)
3x Badlands
2x Taiga
4x Bloodstained Mire
1x Wooded Foothills (thinking of -1 mountain, and +1 foothills for more mana diversity)
2x ancient tomb (just awesome, allows first turn null rods, speeds up ringleaders, and helps greatly with sphere effects)
4x wasteland
1x strip mine


Sideboard : The main idea here is utilize 'free' cards and cards that cant be easily countered by blue decks to make half their deck dead against mine.

4x Mindbreak Trap (in against tidespout oath and other storm decks, Having this in your hand allows breathing room and can steal games outright from greedy players)
3x Ravenous Trap (although dredge plays leylines now, who cares?  What dredge pilot wants to water down there deck against another creature deck to stop 3 cards from me in game 2 and 3)
3x Yixlid Jailer (still scary dredge hate and can come down after they jerked around with a bazaar for a bit and still shut them down)
3x Krosan Grip (comes out when mutation sucks, great tool to have against oath and time vault abusing decks)
1x warren weirding (sometimes you need more creature removal against fish and other decks and allows you to take out dead cards against them i.e null rod)
1x stingscourger (good against some oath creatures, answer to show and tell, can be used off lackey triggers to bounce shop lock pieces, lets me fight around iona whether they name red or black)
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forcethewill
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« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2011, 05:21:47 PM »

i think stingscorger became a much better card with the printing of bsc.  You have access to a bunch of removal spells and bounce for him.
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« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2011, 08:09:59 PM »

Could you quickly describe why you think Goblins deserves a place in the present meta?  In particular, why abandon the Instigator-Spirit Guide tech since you're running blocker removal anyways?
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« Reply #3 on: January 26, 2011, 12:12:37 PM »

I think Goblins deserves a place in the meta because it can (ideally) disrupt all the slower blue-based decks with mana denial, flood the board with more permanents than Stax can answer, and can clock quickly enough to at least stand a prayer versus Oath or Storm, provided you get the lackey->light disruption draw. It can also pack maindeck hate for dredge. All in all, I would run a Goblins list that actually has Vial so you can get ahead on board, and Chalice to slow opponents down significantly. Spirit Guides are a necessary evil to be able to get shit done versus Stax, and your advocation of Earwig Squad is still valid versus decks like Oath and Trygon Jace. This requires sacrificing a lot of the "traditional" Legacy Goblins shell, like most of your gobln Ringleaders (too slow), but it can probably work.
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chalywong
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« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2011, 12:47:02 PM »

What do you cut for spirit guides?  It is a rough road to go down because every permanent mana source you cut ruins your shop match up anyway.  The instigator/spirit guide tech is weak in my opinion.  It may seem awesome to have t1 instigator but think of what actually happens in games.  To use the combo is 3 cards (instigator,guide,land) and to get full value you need 5 cards(2 more goblins).  That's a pretty specific hand and it doesn't even interact with your opponent.  The beauty of a goblin build is that you play good hate cards like null rod and still build an army by using lackey, matron and ringleader.  By trying to be a fast combo deck that is slower and easier to disrupt than other combo decks is a mistake.
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2011, 02:28:37 PM »

What do you cut for spirit guides?  It is a rough road to go down because every permanent mana source you cut ruins your shop match up anyway.  The instigator/spirit guide tech is weak in my opinion.  It may seem awesome to have t1 instigator but think of what actually happens in games.  To use the combo is 3 cards (instigator,guide,land) and to get full value you need 5 cards(2 more goblins).  That's a pretty specific hand and it doesn't even interact with your opponent.  The beauty of a goblin build is that you play good hate cards like null rod and still build an army by using lackey, matron and ringleader.  By trying to be a fast combo deck that is slower and easier to disrupt than other combo decks is a mistake.
While I don't want to get drawn into a protracted debate, you're relying on Lackey, Ruby, and Lotus to do something relevant on turn 1.  Contrast this tutoring for Tinker or turn 1 Lodestone Golem.  In the goblins thread, I've long advocated doing something relevant on turn 1 in order to set up soft wins via Kiki-Jiki or Earwig Squad on turn 2.
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« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2011, 03:27:53 PM »

In the goblins thread, I've long advocated doing something relevant on turn 1 in order to set up soft wins via Kiki-Jiki or Earwig Squad on turn 2.

You're not alone.  I think the seminal piece on aggro theory in Vintage is still Steve M's articles where he talks about making a G/W or G/W/b aggro decks.  I forget the name of them.  But, like Duck, Steve pointed out the critical truth that unless you are winning or disrupting in a meaningful way on turn 1, you're probably not going to do too well.  For example, decks running blue threaten MisD, FoW and Spell Pierce turn 1.  Shop threatens sphere t1.  Every other archetype threatens broken wins on turn 1 too, such as storming out with TPS, resolving Oath, tinkering a robot, etc.  So; yes.  An aggro deck has to present some relevant threat or disruption immediately or it will fall behind. (BTW, this is why Elf combo does not do better, IMHO.  Elf combo sets up a turn 1 mana dork.  That's not relevant.  Even if you're setting up a t2 kill, which is rare, you're super vulnerable.)

When I run aggro, I typically find myself reaching for either black (for duress effects) or blue (for countermagic) to make sure I'm filling this slot.  In GW you have some interesting choices in Gaddok Teeg, Aven Mindcensor / Leonin Arbiter, Pridemage, etc.  In red, you have Gorilla Shaman, Goblin Tinkerer, Goblin Welder, and REB effects.  Chalice and Null Rod are also good t1 plays.  Beacause some of these plays require 2 mana, I ALWAYS run a full set of Spirit Guides when I run red in any way.

Now, mind you, this is all theoretical; I do not run Gobbos because I havn't obtained Piledrivers yet.  But I'm relaying my experence playing many other fishy aggro decks.
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chalywong
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« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2011, 06:43:50 PM »

Ancient Tomb opens up more t1 possibilities. In essence though your major game plan includes starting off with lackey and/or null rod, so wouldn't you mull hands not involving these cards?  Also for lackey to be effective you need a hand full of goblins, adding spirit guide to the mix just adds to the factor of getting a few key cards out and not being able to lay down a goblin when lackey connects.  I'm not saying spirit guide can never be in this deck but it must be added in a way that does not take away from goblin count or permanent mana sources.
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2011, 11:13:12 PM »

You're missing the point.  "This deck" is grossly suboptimal because you've built it to come online sometime around turn 2 and play its first major threat on turn 3.  My historical build had 9 {R} drop Goblins to ensure a turn one play even though I ran 3 Moxen, Lotus Petal, Black Lotus, and Mana Crypt!  I also highlighted a successful and well-tuned Instigator build in the Goblins thread that was quite capable of consistent turn 3 goldfish kills.
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« Reply #9 on: January 27, 2011, 01:27:41 AM »

That deck sounds awesome! Any reports you can link to?
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chalywong
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« Reply #10 on: January 27, 2011, 05:52:19 PM »

@Aduck - this is a thread about null rod goblins.  I understand you have a different take on a goblin build involving more power and 1 drops but this is not that deck.  I'm fine taking any suggestions you might have but please don't hijack the thread preaching about your build is the only way.  By running power and fast mana you have to take null rod out of the deck therefore changing my build completely.  Null Rod is the best piece of hate you can have on the board in almost every match in my opinion(boarded out against dredge and fish).  This is why I choose to include it in my list and build accordingly.
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AmbivalentDuck
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« Reply #11 on: January 27, 2011, 07:43:16 PM »

Here's a contentious statement that begs the question.  If you disagree with it, I'll accuse you of derailing the thread.

Here's my decklist, I've tested it a lot...in my head:
4 Null Rod
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Siege-Gang Commander
48 Mountain

This doesn't even need a sideboard because with so many basics, the brown matchup is amazing.  I may not have any turn 1 plays other than Lackey but they're sure to be in my opening hand and always drop a Commander on turn 2.  My Null Rods are sure to resolve and negate your win-cons.  No restricted tutoring to help find things when I need them?  That's because I don't need it.  Fixing is for unlucky people.  If you claim that my deck is strictly suboptimal for lack of including Mana Crypt  and Demonic Consultation, I'll remind you that that's not what MY deck has and accuse you of derailing the thread.  I've already accepted that it's okay to beg the question, after all.

Questions?  Comments?  Remember, I've posted here 10, maybe 20 times.  I've been to a tournament at some point and know all about Vintage.  I'll critically review your comments using my emotions and react without any attempt to describe or use communicable frameworks for evaluating the optimality of my choices.



And yes, this post is well worth the bold red text.


I think this post begs the question about whether the fallacy of begging the question was properly invoked here.  (See what I did there?)

You're getting a Full Warning where you could have made your point without any sanction, or at worst, some red-text, if you didn't overreach in trying to be cute.  With that out of the way, is it possible to continue this discussion by combining the two perspectives?  Chalywong wants to run a Goblins deck with Null Rod in it.  Duck suggests designing with a view towards maximizing turn 1 plays.  These notions don't seem unavoidably mutually exclusive to me, and both seem to have some merit.  -DA
« Last Edit: January 30, 2011, 09:46:27 PM by Demonic Attorney » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: January 28, 2011, 01:36:44 AM »

chalywong actually plays a fair amount of vintage. I was the one to beat him in t8 of his tournament, however, I still believe his deck was a really bad MU for me. Being that he is from NY, i believe that his deck with a tombs and null rods is good in this environment, NY is full of shops, and a tombs are good to power through spells is good as well as the fact that null rob is good against espresso stax since the deck cheats on mana
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« Reply #13 on: January 28, 2011, 02:04:55 AM »

chalywong actually plays a fair amount of vintage. I was the one to beat him in t8 of his tournament, however, I still believe his deck was a really bad MU for me. Being that he is from NY, i believe that his deck with a tombs and null rods is good in this environment, NY is full of shops, and a tombs are good to power through spells is good as well as the fact that null rob is good against espresso stax since the deck cheats on mana

Rod isn't that great against Espresso Stax because it doesn't run Metalworker. You are only cutting off their moxen and that really isn't much. Most Espresso lists run 3-4 Rishadan Port and Null Rod doesn't hit them at all. Granted you can stop Karn from doing shenanigans, but trust me when I tell you that Null Rod is pretty much awful in the match-up. The way to beat Espresso is to actually pull off your game-plan and do something like EOT Hurkyl's. The other way to beat Espresso is to be playing MUD with Metalworker. That is why worker variants are so hot right now. They absolutely destroy Espresso variants.

-Storm
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« Reply #14 on: January 28, 2011, 02:54:10 AM »

chalywong actually plays a fair amount of vintage. I was the one to beat him in t8 of his tournament, however, I still believe his deck was a really bad MU for me. Being that he is from NY, i believe that his deck with a tombs and null rods is good in this environment, NY is full of shops, and a tombs are good to power through spells is good as well as the fact that null rob is good against espresso stax since the deck cheats on mana

Rod isn't that great against Espresso Stax because it doesn't run Metalworker. You are only cutting off their moxen and that really isn't much. Most Espresso lists run 3-4 Rishadan Port and Null Rod doesn't hit them at all. Granted you can stop Karn from doing shenanigans, but trust me when I tell you that Null Rod is pretty much awful in the match-up. The way to beat Espresso is to actually pull off your game-plan and do something like EOT Hurkyl's. The other way to beat Espresso is to be playing MUD with Metalworker. That is why worker variants are so hot right now. They absolutely destroy Espresso variants.

-Storm

Espresso cheats on mana, that means moxes and such are more important then in stax decks in the past. Something like t1 rod with waste back up is really good agaist espresso.
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« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2011, 10:28:32 AM »

By running power and fast mana you have to take null rod out of the deck.
not true


 Null Rod is the best piece of hate you can have on the board in almost every match in my opinion(boarded out against dredge and fish).  This is why I choose to include it in my list and build accordingly.
Not true. This depends on your meta. Itís not very good against oath for example.
By running power and fast mana you have to take null rod out of the deck.
not true


 Null Rod is the best piece of hate you can have on the board in almost every match in my opinion(boarded out against dredge and fish).  This is why I choose to include it in my list and build accordingly.
Not true. This depends on your meta. Itís not very good against oath for example, especially the current list capable of making infinite boomerang.  Even assuming you have the unlike turn one null rod on the play with waste in hand, your opponent can just lead with basic then play land oath, and then attack you.

Personally, I would think about cutting rod to max out on earwig squad (and add an amount of SSS because it enables the squad and is great against shop).  Itís better against oath, pretty similar against time vault deck (probably better because they can always bounce your null rod), is a huge cheap body that dominates fish and trades with shop robots.
When I say think about, I mean: Take deck your apart, try it in a couple different configurations, test it a lot in a lot of likely match ups a bunch of times, if it does work try and make it work again in case your just executing it wrong, then make a decision.
Not just ďI thought about it and I think itís no good/I donít need it because I did fine with what Iím already  playingĒ. Way too many players do that lately.

Iíve also never been too keen about prison pieces against a prison deck. Iíve had more success with SSS, Vials, and Price of progress. Price of progress is the real win against shop. They're already designed to play through prison pieces
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chalywong
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« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2011, 10:30:45 AM »

Sure Null Rod isn't as much as beating against espresso as it is against other shop decks but I have still won games on its back and have been scooped to because of it.  Although it doesn't shut down their major game plan it makes them play "fair" so to speak and not able to get an unfair board position quickly without mana crypt, sol ring, mana vault and moxen.  Instead they have to rely on workshop mana for strong first turn plays and we play 5 strip effects.  I think this is a pretty good mana denial plan considering that a bunch of goblins in the deck double as artifact hate to further add to the consistency of it.
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chalywong
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« Reply #17 on: January 28, 2011, 10:38:54 AM »

I think you guys are misunderstanding my position on this deck.  I've been playing goblins for at least the past 10 months or so and have played in about 15+ different tournaments(including 50 something place at waterbury) with the deck.  I have tried different configurations(SSS, 4 earwigs, mogg fanatics, vandals, main deck leylines, vial, chalices just to name a few) and this is what I have found to be strongest in my metagame in the northeast.  Most of my losses come from misplays on my end rather than a blowout because power > unpowered.  I am not the greatest player but I do have more experience with the deck then you guys are giving me credit for.
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« Reply #18 on: January 28, 2011, 11:55:30 AM »

I think you guys are misunderstanding my position on this deck.  I've been playing goblins for at least the past 10 months or so and have played in about 15+ different tournaments(including 50 something place at waterbury) with the deck.  I have tried different configurations(SSS, 4 earwigs, mogg fanatics, vandals, main deck leylines, vial, chalices just to name a few) and this is what I have found to be strongest in my metagame in the northeast.  Most of my losses come from misplays on my end rather than a blowout because power > unpowered.  I am not the greatest player but I do have more experience with the deck then you guys are giving me credit for.
Perhaps your post should reflect this by revealing a deeper reasoning as to why you play and do not play certain things. Lay out some common game states and explain why things are optimal.  I look at you're reasoning behind null rod and read "still the king of hate cards.  Now even better with metalworker resurgence in the Northeastern US. Shuts off vault and must be dealt with a lot of the time buying you precious time to swing in the for win" and really have a hard time believing you're going to out prison the prison/robot deck, and that this card is anything but good against oath and fish. There is an argument here for tezz matchups, but it seems to me like more earwig squad would solve the problem with more applications in other matchups. For example, it lives through clasm, and if you get fire spouted, ripping a 5/3 is pretty good recovery.
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« Reply #19 on: January 28, 2011, 12:00:25 PM »

Dan does have a ton of experience with goblins.  Whenever I have to sit down across from him I dislike the matchup because I always feel that he has the advantage in game 1.  Null rod is huge in the expresso matchup.  turn 1 nullrod on the play shuts down moxen crypt vault ring karn and powders(yes on a slowish hand powder becomes amazing).  what does a shop player follow that up with a sphere effect? tangle wire? there is no bot in expresso that costs 3 mana.  when followed up with a wasteland it devestates the shop player.  and buys him the time to drop a lackey swing and drop whatever he wants.  I have sat across from him where he has gone ruby lackey tomb rod.  It is not pleasant.  

Rod isnt good in the oath matchup? why because it doesn't hit the oath? ok but they still run vault and key right? moxen yea they run those.  Sol ring mana crypt yup those as well.  So I took away their alternate win con to make a matchup that is a nightmare a little less nightmareish.  Oathing up either Iona or Sphinx is hard for the goblin player to win.  
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« Reply #20 on: January 28, 2011, 12:41:26 PM »

@hundred - The reason I use null rod is because it shuts off fast wins and lock outs.  Who cares that my null rod got nature's claimed or bounced?  This means the blue player is searching for answers to a card that is not my win condition and playing a weaker deck because of it.  It takes time to cast these spells and tutor them up to clear the path for a win which opens the window for you to play more goblins and win.  In combination with my sideboard it would be very hard for a player to get those t1 and t2 wins.

I have also played with up to 4x earwig squad in the deck and have since reduced the number to 2.  With 4 in the deck it becomes a major gameplan therefore making it essential to connect with a goblin early turns.  This means you have to draw lackey or play other 1 drops which in my experience have not pulled their own weight.  Although his prowl cost says 2B it really costs you 1 successful combat step and 3 mana.  Since your lackey is such a threat on turn 1 you can be very sure the other player has at least a few ways to kill him or block him therefore shutting you off completely from the earwig plan.  What do you with a handful of earwig squads and no board presence? You lose.  The reason the goblin deck is so amazing is because it can create an army of nowhere so those core cards should be the 4-of's in the deck instead of another that needs the rest of deck to work smoothly to be powerful(earwig).  Don't get me wrong, earwig squad is an amazing card and belongs in the deck, I just think 4x is overkill and will lead to more mulligans and dead main phases because he costs too much without prowling.
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« Reply #21 on: January 28, 2011, 12:49:09 PM »

I think you guys are misunderstanding my position on this deck.  I've been playing goblins for at least the past 10 months or so and have played in about 15+ different tournaments(including 50 something place at waterbury) with the deck.  I have tried different configurations(SSS, 4 earwigs, mogg fanatics, vandals, main deck leylines, vial, chalices just to name a few) and this is what I have found to be strongest in my metagame in the northeast.  Most of my losses come from misplays on my end rather than a blowout because power > unpowered.  I am not the greatest player but I do have more experience with the deck then you guys are giving me credit for.
Perhaps your post should reflect this by revealing a deeper reasoning as to why you play and do not play certain things. Lay out some common game states and explain why things are optimal.  I look at you're reasoning behind null rod and read "still the king of hate cards.  Now even better with metalworker resurgence in the Northeastern US. Shuts off vault and must be dealt with a lot of the time buying you precious time to swing in the for win" and really have a hard time believing you're going to out prison the prison/robot deck, and that this card is anything but good against oath and fish. There is an argument here for tezz matchups, but it seems to me like more earwig squad would solve the problem with more applications in other matchups. For example, it lives through clasm, and if you get fire spouted, ripping a 5/3 is pretty good recovery.

How is earwig squad going to be better in the prison deck matchup where he will cost over 5 mana and just get duplicated or just not be able to get through a karn. Nul rod will be able to stop karn along with the prison decks easy mana.
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« Reply #22 on: January 28, 2011, 12:54:55 PM »

Here's a contentious statement that begs the question.  If you disagree with it, I'll accuse you of derailing the thread.

Here's my decklist, I've tested it a lot...in my head:
4 Null Rod
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Siege-Gang Commander
48 Mountain

This doesn't even need a sideboard because with so many basics, the brown matchup is amazing.  I may not have any turn 1 plays other than Lackey but they're sure to be in my opening hand and always drop a Commander on turn 2.  My Null Rods are sure to resolve and negate your win-cons.  No restricted tutoring to help find things when I need them?  That's because I don't need it.  Fixing is for unlucky people.  If you claim that my deck is strictly suboptimal for lack of including Mana Crypt  and Demonic Consultation, I'll remind you that that's not what MY deck has and accuse you of derailing the thread.  I've already accepted that it's okay to beg the question, after all.

Questions?  Comments?  Remember, I've posted here 10, maybe 20 times.  I've been to a tournament at some point and know all about Vintage.  I'll critically review your comments using my emotions and react without any attempt to describe or use communicable frameworks for evaluating the optimality of my choices.



And yes, this post is well worth the bold red text.
What is the relevance of how many times someone has posted on themanadrain.com? Does this mean if someone has under a certain amount of post they don't know anything about vintage?
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Delha
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« Reply #23 on: January 28, 2011, 01:36:35 PM »

What is the relevance of how many times someone has posted on themanadrain.com? Does this mean if someone has under a certain amount of post they don't know anything about vintage?
Have you ever noticed that post count most often comes up when someone new throws up a decklist, then starts getting pissy while defending it? Think about it. When new users keep a level head when talking their pile, they get feedback focused on the deck. While I feel said feedback is sometimes overly harsh, it doesn't start personal. It only goes there when things heat up, and that's usually because the poster starts using irrational arguments. You've surely seen it happen before.

It's a well established pattern, and while I'm not saying one way or another if I feel this is another case, this thread certainly contains some characteristics typically associated with said pattern.
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I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #24 on: January 28, 2011, 06:16:23 PM »

I think you guys are misunderstanding my position on this deck.  I've been playing goblins for at least the past 10 months or so and have played in about 15+ different tournaments(including 50 something place at waterbury) with the deck.  I have tried different configurations(SSS, 4 earwigs, mogg fanatics, vandals, main deck leylines, vial, chalices just to name a few) and this is what I have found to be strongest in my metagame in the northeast.  Most of my losses come from misplays on my end rather than a blowout because power > unpowered.  I am not the greatest player but I do have more experience with the deck then you guys are giving me credit for.
Perhaps your post should reflect this by revealing a deeper reasoning as to why you play and do not play certain things. Lay out some common game states and explain why things are optimal.  I look at you're reasoning behind null rod and read "still the king of hate cards.  Now even better with metalworker resurgence in the Northeastern US. Shuts off vault and must be dealt with a lot of the time buying you precious time to swing in the for win" and really have a hard time believing you're going to out prison the prison/robot deck, and that this card is anything but good against oath and fish. There is an argument here for tezz matchups, but it seems to me like more earwig squad would solve the problem with more applications in other matchups. For example, it lives through clasm, and if you get fire spouted, ripping a 5/3 is pretty good recovery.

How is earwig squad going to be better in the prison deck matchup where he will cost over 5 mana and just get duplicated or just not be able to get through a karn. Nul rod will be able to stop karn along with the prison decks easy mana.

ever lacky in a 5/3? pretty good against shop. he doesn't get hit by thorn can be prowled in at 3 manas

"he'll just get duped"... HA, by that logic shoudn't play goblins! unless they have some half decent shroud goblin idk about. It's also not like the deck doesn't have tutorable removal for karn. Additionally, you can run price of progress to go over karn's head.
« Last Edit: January 28, 2011, 06:27:10 PM by hvndr3d y34r h3x » Logged

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I am 80:20 against LordHomerCat, the word's 2nd best and on other days the world's best vintage player. Wink
hvndr3d y34r h3x
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« Reply #25 on: January 28, 2011, 06:34:28 PM »


Rod isnt good in the oath matchup? why because it doesn't hit the oath? ok but they still run vault and key right?
no, currently most list placing run zero timevault/key and 2 tyrants.
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I am 80:20 against LordHomerCat, the word's 2nd best and on other days the world's best vintage player. Wink
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« Reply #26 on: January 28, 2011, 06:36:56 PM »


Rod isnt good in the oath matchup? why because it doesn't hit the oath? ok but they still run vault and key right?
no, currently most list are a mirror of Paul Mastriano's running zero timevault/key and 2 tyrants.
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forcethewill
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« Reply #27 on: January 28, 2011, 09:21:54 PM »


Rod isnt good in the oath matchup? why because it doesn't hit the oath? ok but they still run vault and key right?
no, currently most list are a mirror of Paul Mastriano's running zero timevault/key and 2 tyrants.

welcome to a world where there are multiple verison of oath and not just one set version.
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« Reply #28 on: January 28, 2011, 10:41:56 PM »

I also think you guys are focusing on the main deck too much.  The main deck is designed to be a consistent aggro clock.  Although in tournaments you play more boarded games than anything else you have to take in account how the sideboard changes the deck from matchup to matchup.  In game 2 and 3 the deck can focus it's powerful hate cards in one direction because you now have information and can adapt. 

There may be many decks in the meta game but the number of win conditions are far fewer.  The sideboard is designed in a way that if you try to go for one these 'power' wins (vault/key, storm, prison lock out, oath/tinker for massive creatures, abusing the graveyard) I can add in even more specific hate shut them out of the game control style.  Sure a deck can fight null rod, but can it fight off an earwig next turn? deal with a mindbreak trap after all that? Seems unlikely.  Not very hard to accomplish with this deck.  Matron and Ringleader are integral to this because it allows you to skip past hate cards and lands to get to more goblins when you need.  This makes playing 7x hate cards or so not as detrimental to the main goal of the deck.  This isn't the perfect strategy but I like being able to attack decks from many directions and this build can do that.  You have a lot of options each turn with deck making it pretty difficult to play 100% but I like that challenge believe it will make me a better player in the long run.
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« Reply #29 on: January 29, 2011, 12:33:19 AM »

Corey Mann built the original list for this deck.  That name probably doesn't mean anything to most of the guys on this thread, but he's an aggro pro, having top 8'd more than 12 PTQ's in the last few years running creature based decks.  Corey took this deck to a top 4 finish at a 47 man N.Y.S.E. Lotus tournament, and has done well at past Waterbury's with this deck.

So, that being said, I'd say that I think there is a place for Null Rod in the deck.  I really like the Ancient Tombs, as I think they help the Goblins player accelerate past the infinite Sphere effects that are running around, especially in New York. 

I'm not an aggro pro, but you guys should give Dan some credit.  This last wasn't thrown together, there was a lot of high level thought that went into it.
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