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Author Topic: [Deck] Liquid Red Shop  (Read 1918 times)
beder
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« on: December 08, 2010, 02:31:07 AM »

Hi all,

I recently tried a different approach for Shop, removing the wasteland denial (+crucible). This came to my mind for different reasons :
- wasteland takes a land drop, slowing down the development of your game plan,
- with shop being everywhere, other decks have strongly adapted their mana base with a sufficent number of basics,
- with gush being legal, waste are less effective,

In place of wasteland and to deliver an effective "Mana Denial Tactic", I tried the following package :
- 4xGorilla Shaman,
- 4xKarn,
- 4xLiquidmetal,
- 4xMagus of the moon.

Through Liquidmetal (in combinaison with shaman or karn) and Magus of the moon, I disrupt the "land part" of the mana base.
Through Shaman and Karn, I disrupt efficently the "artifact part" of the mana base.

This led me to this build which shows some potential through promissing testings.

------------------- Liquid Red Shop -------------------

// Lands (15, no waste/strip)
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Ancient Tomb
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Great Furnace
    4 Mountain

// Creatures
    4 Gorilla Shaman
    4 Goblin Welder
    4 Magus of the Moon
    4 Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
    3 Mox Opal
    1 Black Lotus + 5 moxes + Sol ring + Mana crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    
    4 Liquimetal Coating

    1 Trinisphere
    4 Sphere of Resistance

    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Smokestack

/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Some remarks :
- The deck can very easily and consistently lock opponent out of the game, dealing with fetchlands or basics through liquidmetal or proactively thanks to Magus.
- Karn is a strong protection against fast aggro mode, buying enough time for a smokestack or tangle lock (thanks to welder).
- Magus of the moon is a game breaker (combined with all the artifact disruption packed by this build)

Some thinkings :
- Still not sure about the number of  {R} producers. 13 is perhaps a little bit low (8 lands, 3 mox opal, 1 mox and 1 lotus),
- Still not sure about the number of karn/shaman/welder. 4 of each of them is perhaps a little bit too much.
    => Welder is not so usefull in early games (at least not as usefull as in regular Red Shop with bazaar),
    => Shaman is not cumulative,
    => Karn is legendary.

Feel free to react, this approach of red shop is significantly different from the standard one, it could definitely benefit from discussion and exchange.

Cheers

Nicolas
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 02:46:09 AM by beder » Logged
punki
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« Reply #1 on: December 08, 2010, 02:56:05 AM »

I'm happy I'm not the only one trying coating in stax (see my thread different take on shops)
I tried it in a 5 c stax shell with welders and crucibles, ancient grudge and sylvok replica. The shaman can not take out creatures where coating + replica or grudge can. Also cutting strip and wastes is an interesting idea. I did not cut them because they work very well with the rest of the deck. now you need coating + mox monkey or karn to take out a (one) land. If they have a fetch, it also takes you two turns to take out that one land. I would run the wastelands and stripmine complementary to the coatings.

Welder also works well with liquimetal coating. If they have an artifact in graveyar you can weld out anything on their side (accept sphinx and inkwell)
ALso in midgame it is nice to turn one of your lands into an artifact, weld it out for something you need and replay the land with crucible.

I think 3 mox opal is to much, I also think 4 karn is overkill. They are legendary and my 5c manabase works fine for me with one opal, so I can imagine yours would too. If you want to run so many copies of all of those cards, I would consider bazaar of baghdad to filter dead cards
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beder
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« Reply #2 on: December 08, 2010, 03:51:01 AM »

Not playing the waste/strip and using 3 mox opal also is also directly related to the use of Magus of The moon, which is the mvp in this deck.
Combined with magus, I feel like waste is really not so efficent. If you play it early game to attack opponent mana base, it should slow down your ability to play a fast magus. After Magus has been played, they are really not so good.
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madlucas
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« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2010, 09:09:36 AM »

I tested few games on MWS and I just came out with this SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge)
4 Pithing Needle (Dredge/MUD)
4 Thorn of Amethyst (Control/Combo)
3 Solemn Simulacrum (MUD/Fish)

Any advice about it?

VS MUD: - 4 Spheres - 1Trinisphere + 3 Solemn + 2 Needle
VS Dredge: - 4 Smoke - 4 Tangle - 4 Spheres + 4 Tormod's + 4 Needle + 4 Thorn
VS TPS: - 1 Welder - 2 Karn - 1 Mox Opal + 4 Thorn
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beder
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« Reply #4 on: December 08, 2010, 09:25:01 AM »

I tested few games on MWS and I just came out with this SB:
4 Tormod's Crypt (Dredge)
4 Pithing Needle (Dredge/MUD)
4 Thorn of Amethyst (Control/Combo)
3 Solemn Simulacrum (MUD/Fish)

Any advice about it?

VS MUD: - 4 Spheres - 1Trinisphere + 3 Solemn + 2 Needle
VS Dredge: - 4 Smoke - 4 Tangle - 4 Spheres + 4 Tormod's + 4 Needle + 4 Thorn
VS TPS: - 1 Welder - 2 Karn - 1 Mox Opal + 4 Thorn

To be honnest, I am still reall not sure about the side for this build. Still working on it.

I think that the deck needs some side slot to handle fish, which has null rod+painfull creatures. Solutions could be :
- artifact destruction dealing with both null rod and creature if liquidmetal is on board (ingot chewer or rack and ruin could be interesting solutions),
- or shop anti creature classical tool,
- or big artifact creatures which are difficult to answer by fish

Against mud, the deck already packs the gorilla+welder combo. But I think it may not be sufficent. Some other artifact destruction may be necessary.

Then for sure, the deck needs some side slot to handle dredge. Surely, the 4 Tormods are a must have, especially with welder.

When it comes to storm, I think I wouldn't use specific slot. Putting 4 sphere only to deal with storm is too expensive.

Against blue control, red elemental may definitely be an option. This may also be an interesting against fish.

In the end, I still have to work on the side so it is difficult for me to provide you with an advice...

I think I may start the side with something like :
- 4 Tormods
- 4 Ingot
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 09:30:46 AM by beder » Logged
punki
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« Reply #5 on: December 08, 2010, 11:54:13 AM »

I think you need the extra artifact removal.

mud can throw chalice @1 or a needle on shaman or welder so you want to get rid of that
null rod can be anoying and toe destroy it with shaman you ned 5 non artifact non shop mana

I also think you need some instant speed artifact removal tot deal with fish's null rods and with TV key and against shop decks that can keep you locked down with tangle wires.

Magus seems interesting, so I'm going to try your list. I just think I will miss the ancient grudges and sylvok replicas I run now because they do not combine very well with magus. But maybe magus is strong enough on its own so I'm going to test him
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serracollector
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« Reply #6 on: December 08, 2010, 12:32:45 PM »

With that many mana sources, wouldn't viashino heretic be almost and auto include?  If can kill ANY perm (besides sphinx/inkwell) including jace.  Does damage on top of that.  Also its only 2 mana to destroy anything, including Null Rod and such, and it can chump snakes and confidants all day. 

Maybe -2 Karn, for 2 Heretic?

Also an interesting card i been trying to play with is Vulshok replica.  Its a reuseable bolt, a blocker against golems and juggs, or w/e.   Not sure what to take out or w/e for it, but a thought.
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Hillboy
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« Reply #7 on: December 08, 2010, 03:30:25 PM »

I like the idea I do but I worry that it relies too much on liquimetal coating though with goblin welder I understand you can just weld them in. Heretic does sound cool but perhaps too cool? Along the lines of heretic is Manic vandal or even goblin vandal that could be useful.
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serracollector
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« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2010, 03:58:33 PM »

Manic Vandal is a 1 shot, and its toughness doesn't along you to block snakes and confidants forever.

And Vandal requires an unblocked attack.

With all the moxen, crypt, and 3 opals, getting 3 mana turn 1 wouldnt be incredible uncommon.  I just keep thinking that a first turn heretic, 2nd turn drop land, cast coating, destroy their land is a pretty good start. 
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beder
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« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2010, 04:49:15 PM »

I think you need the extra artifact removal.

mud can throw chalice @1 or a needle on shaman or welder so you want to get rid of that
null rod can be anoying and toe destroy it with shaman you ned 5 non artifact non shop mana

I also think you need some instant speed artifact removal tot deal with fish's null rods and with TV key and against shop decks that can keep you locked down with tangle wires.

Magus seems interesting, so I'm going to try your list. I just think I will miss the ancient grudges and sylvok replicas I run now because they do not combine very well with magus. But maybe magus is strong enough on its own so I'm going to test him

I would definitely appreciate some "real" artifact removal main. I even thought about adding green (trhough taiga in place of mountain), to be able to use some ancient grudge or some sylvoc replica (which I love a lot in your 5CC list by the way). But I don't know if the "adding a second color and so missing sometimes the right color" improves the deck or weaken it.
Another option could be to add some red artifact removal main, like shattering spree, rack and ruin or ingot.

With that many mana sources, wouldn't viashino heretic be almost and auto include?  If can kill ANY perm (besides sphinx/inkwell) including jace.  Does damage on top of that.  Also its only 2 mana to destroy anything, including Null Rod and such, and it can chump snakes and confidants all day.  

Maybe -2 Karn, for 2 Heretic?

Heretic is a cool idea, but perhaps too cool. It costing 3 mana and taking one turn to do anything is a real weakness... But I didn't test it enough to have a 100% clear opinion
« Last Edit: December 08, 2010, 05:15:05 PM by beder » Logged
beder
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« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2010, 06:04:52 PM »

I like the idea I do but I worry that it relies too much on liquimetal coating though with goblin welder I understand you can just weld them in. Heretic does sound cool but perhaps too cool? Along the lines of heretic is Manic vandal or even goblin vandal that could be useful.

Without the liquidmetal coating, you still have a solid red shop build, with magus/sphere/tangle/smokestack disruption + shaman/karn for artifact destruction. In fact, the pb which may occur is more related to having liquidmetal on board but not one of your 8 artifact removal.
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punki
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« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 02:17:31 AM »

well I started out monored, wanted green for ancient grudge and the replica and finally decided on a 5c manabase to add tutors.

Monored with the 4 basics really appeals to me, but I would want some kind of drawengine to compensate for the lack of tutors.
Heretic always found 4 spots in my sideboard when playing monored, So maybe it would be maindeckable in this build.

I try to look at succesfull shop decks in the past and I'm torn between ubastax or aggro stax for this list. If staying monored I would try:

aggro aproach with magus: I added sword of fire and ice as a drawengine and a clock to turn al those little creatures into real threats. Also darkblast and fire/ice or other burn spells are really anoying if you are dependant on 1/1 and 2/2 creatures to make your deck work.

// Lands (15, no waste/strip)
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Ancient Tomb
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Great Furnace
    4 Mountain

// Creatures
    3 Gorilla Shaman
    4 Goblin Welder
    4 Magus of the Moon
    2 Karn, Silver Golem
    3 viashino heretic

// Spells
    2 Mox Opal
    1 Black Lotus + 5 moxes + Sol ring + Mana crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    
    4 Liquimetal Coating

    1 Trinisphere
    3 Sphere of Resistance

    2 Sword of fire and ice (maybe 3 and cut one sphere or smokestack)
    
    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Smokestack


Going the UBA aproach: Ubamask + bazaar = drawengine and uba on itself has become slightly better because of jace. Also with the welders you can ubalock the opponent from casting anything but instants.

// Lands (15, no waste/strip)
    1 Tolarian Academy
    2 Ancient Tomb
    4 Mishra's Workshop
    4 Great Furnace
    4 Mountain
4 Bazaar of baghdad

// Creatures
    3 Gorilla Shaman
    4 Goblin Welder
    3 Karn, Silver Golem

// Spells
    2 Mox Opal
    1 Black Lotus + 5 moxes + Sol ring + Mana crypt
    1 Mana Vault
    
    4 Liquimetal Coating

    1 Trinisphere
    4 Sphere of Resistance

3 ubamask

    4 Tangle Wire
    4 Smokestack

« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 02:21:53 AM by punki » Logged
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