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Author Topic: [SCD] Mox Opal  (Read 5526 times)
Meddling Mike
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« on: September 27, 2010, 02:15:00 AM »

Mox Opal

Card Type: Legendary Artifact

Casting Cost: 0

Oracle Text: Metalcraft — Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

I'm a bit surprised to have seen no discussion of this card and how it relates to Workshop decks yet. Two main questions come to mind:
1) Does it belong in Shop decks and does this answer differ for different builds?
2) If it does warrant inclusion, how many?

1) Of all the common decks in the format, Workshop decks should be the decks that achieve metalcraft most consistently, still, it is difficult to measure how hard it will be to meet this condition without the benefit of playtesting. The Shop decks with more colored spells will reap the greatest benefit of the fact that Mox Opal produces any color of mana, but because of their non-artifact spells may have more difficulty achieving metalcraft.

2) Wizards added an interesting twist by making Mox Opal Legen (wait for it...) dary. We certainly don't want to have our hand weighed down with redundant Mox Opals that can't be played, but it is worth noting that sacrificing them to smokestacks or welding them out with Goblin Welders can allow the Mox Opals in hand to be played while getting some benefit.
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« Reply #1 on: September 27, 2010, 08:01:51 PM »

In most decks I'd say you almost don't really need them, though 2 (3 MAX) could be playable IMO.  You could play 4 in ubastax with bazaars, but why?  That's too much extra mana, too many dead cards.  I'd say 2 max in most decks is fine
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« Reply #2 on: September 27, 2010, 09:31:40 PM »

It could be useful in 5-Color stax as mana crypt, sol ring, and vault aren't all that good in that deck, they are just redundant with the workshops as the workshops provide more than enough mana.

Black Lotus
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3 Mox Opal

Depends allot on how you build it though.  I think Mox opal is definately a card to remember though even if you don't want to use it with your current build.  It really just lets you build the mana base and therefore the deck completely differently.
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« Reply #3 on: September 27, 2010, 11:09:56 PM »

is it really a must have in MUD lists?  probably not. I can see it as a one or two of. Its legendary, has an annoying drawback (cant really roll till turn 2 reliably). It does make a nice 6th mox though. Better in Mud than the other 2 mox cousins (chrome and diamond).

and as the above poster states,

it performs far better in 5c stax than MUD lists
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« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2010, 08:24:37 AM »

The 'above poster' also said that Sol Ring wasn't all that good in 5c Stax.  I guess he has figured out a way to cast colored spells off Workshop mana?

Mox Opal has a lot of potential, but I'm not certain it goes in decks that often set Chalice at zero.  Even on the draw seeing too many moxen is risky against Shop decks.

Probably the best home I can think of for Opal is Ad Nauseam, since it already runs full acceleration and Chrome Moxen to boot.

Also for fun I'm testing a janky Affinity-style MUD with a few Opals.
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« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2010, 11:25:11 AM »

It could be useful in 5-Color stax as mana crypt, sol ring, and vault aren't all that good in that deck, they are just redundant with the workshops as the workshops provide more than enough mana.


I agree.  This thing belons in a 5c Stax build but probably not anywhere else.  Mono Red Stax might test it in place of one of the other Moxen, but I doubt they'll want to use a full playset.
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« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2010, 05:09:06 PM »

The 'above poster' also said that Sol Ring wasn't all that good in 5c Stax.  I guess he has figured out a way to cast colored spells off Workshop mana?

Mox Opal has a lot of potential, but I'm not certain it goes in decks that often set Chalice at zero.  Even on the draw seeing too many moxen is risky against Shop decks.

Probably the best home I can think of for Opal is Ad Nauseam, since it already runs full acceleration and Chrome Moxen to boot.

Also for fun I'm testing a janky Affinity-style MUD with a few Opals.

i think his point was that mox opal is a better option than mana crypt/sol ring/mana vault in 5c STAX. Its a reasonable point whether you agree with it or not.


but like i said prior, i would not dismiss the opal out of hand, even in MUD lists.
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« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2010, 06:21:21 PM »

i think his point was that mox opal is a better option than mana crypt/sol ring/mana vault in 5c STAX. Its a reasonable point whether you agree with it or not.

Well, I don't really think it's reasonable to cut a solid card like Sol Ring for Mox Opal.  Crypt and Vault might be potential Opals, but to replace Sol Ring seems down right bad.

Am I missing something here?  When did Sol Ring become 'not so good' as artifact acceleration for 5C Stax?  I'll beg to differ on the matter.  To be clear, I'm sure Opal can find a home right alongside a card like Sol Ring.
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« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2010, 08:56:28 PM »

i think his point was that mox opal is a better option than mana crypt/sol ring/mana vault in 5c STAX. Its a reasonable point whether you agree with it or not.

Well, I don't really think it's reasonable to cut a solid card like Sol Ring for Mox Opal.  Crypt and Vault might be potential Opals, but to replace Sol Ring seems down right bad.

Am I missing something here?  When did Sol Ring become 'not so good' as artifact acceleration for 5C Stax?  I'll beg to differ on the matter.  To be clear, I'm sure Opal can find a home right alongside a card like Sol Ring.

its not not good. if anything is going to be cut, it will be vault.



no one is going to cut sol ring instead of mana vault or even crypt.
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« Reply #9 on: September 29, 2010, 07:53:14 AM »

no one is going to cut sol ring instead of mana vault or even crypt.

I think you are lost here, let me try to help out.  The whole point I'm trying to make is that Mox Opal will not replace Sol Ring as the person you are defending/debating for clearly suggested.  Here is that quote for reference:

Quote
It could be useful in 5-Color stax as mana crypt, sol ring, and vault aren't all that good in that deck, they are just redundant with the workshops as the workshops provide more than enough mana.

Black Lotus
5 Mox
3 Mox Opal(Here he has replaced Mana Crypt, Mana Vault and SOL RING)

So it seems that someone IS going to cut Sol Ring for an Opal.  I stand behind my statement that doing so is terrible.  Maybe the one who posted it can better explain why he thinks it's a good idea, since you can't seem to do so.  Remember the focus is on Sol Ring.

I'm not trying to be harsh, I just hope people can see that it's a bad idea.  Vault may actually be a good call, but replacing Sol Ring is not.
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« Reply #10 on: September 29, 2010, 06:25:12 PM »

no one is going to cut sol ring instead of mana vault or even crypt.

I think you are lost here, let me try to help out.  The whole point I'm trying to make is that Mox Opal will not replace Sol Ring as the person you are defending/debating for clearly suggested.  Here is that quote for reference:

Quote
It could be useful in 5-Color stax as mana crypt, sol ring, and vault aren't all that good in that deck, they are just redundant with the workshops as the workshops provide more than enough mana.

Black Lotus
5 Mox
3 Mox Opal(Here he has replaced Mana Crypt, Mana Vault and SOL RING)

So it seems that someone IS going to cut Sol Ring for an Opal.  I stand behind my statement that doing so is terrible.  Maybe the one who posted it can better explain why he thinks it's a good idea, since you can't seem to do so.  Remember the focus is on Sol Ring.

I'm not trying to be harsh, I just hope people can see that it's a bad idea.  Vault may actually be a good call, but replacing Sol Ring is not.


ok i am following you now. I thought you were arguing that the mox had no place. NOW i see that he indeed was cutting all three for opals...which i agree is a bad idea.
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« Reply #11 on: September 29, 2010, 08:10:09 PM »

Let's speak rationally about this card for a moment here.

I have a few problems with Mox Opal.  They are:

1.  The card, potentially, makes no mana until you have already dropped your lock pieces or mana acceleration.  At which point, what real purpose did it serve?

2.  There are very few open slots in a standard MUD deck for this.  If you are cutting cards to run Mox Opal, you are either cutting business, or you are cutting mana sources.  Some sub-points:

I.  If you are cutting business, what do you really hope to accelerate into?  What lock pieces do you run that demand such mana production in the first two or three turns that running a playset of Workshops and Ancient Tombs, along with five Moxen, Sol Ring, Mana Crypt and Mana Vault, are insufficient?

II.  If you are cutting mana sources to run Mox Opal, you are in all likelihood cutting mana sources that are superior to this Mox in order to run it.  Let's discuss the mana base of Espresso Stax.  Is Mox Opal superior to even your weakest land?  Rishadan Port serves its function as a lock piece in addition to a mana source.  The Mox is not superior to any of your other lands.  This Mox is inferior to all your other artifact acceleration as well.

3.  This card makes you even more susceptible to opposing decks that run Chalice of the Void or Sphere effects.  Chalice 0 suddenly becomes a play that can shut off nearly half your mana sources.

4.  5CStax functions best in a concentrated metagame in which one or two decks are the top players, and most of the rest of the field is sub-par.  5C was very powerful last year when Tezzeret decks had access to a full playset of Thirst for Knowledge, along with all their other standard spells.  Across the United States we have seen diverse metagames at all tournaments.  TPS won a Philly Open, MUD won an N.Y.S.E., Jace Control won an N.Y.S.E., Dredge won a Lotus back in January at an N.Y.S.E, and Noble Fish has won a few N.Y.S.E. Lite events, and has top 8'd several of my tournaments.  Before we ask ourselves if Mox Opal is good in 5CStax (which I don't think it is), shouldn't we be asking ourselves if 5CStax is a good deck for the current metgame?

When new cards come out there is a great deal of attention that is paid to them.  This is a fine thing.  I think that there are many new, great, cards that will see play in Shop decks in particular in the coming year.  I do not, however, feel as though we can, or should, just stick four of a new card in an existing deck without addressing whether or not the deck has issues that needed to be solved, or asking ourselves if we are strictly upgrading the power level of the deck by including the card.  

Nature's Claim was an auto-include because it was powerful, but also a response to the power of the Shop decks in the metagame.  Nature's Claim addressed a problem - Shop decks beating blue decks before they had a chance to establish a board state.  

Something like Mox Opal doesn't necessarily address anything.  Do you feel that the MUD decks need additional acceleration?  Do you feel as if you have been losing games because you have not had an explosive enough opening?  Do you feel that there is a specific need that the inclusion of Mox Opal addresses?

I believe that the answer to these questions is no.  I believe that time will prove me right.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 09:52:30 PM by Prospero » Logged

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« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2010, 09:29:28 PM »

I didn't say cut sol ring, mana crypt, and mana vault out of your mud build and replace them with mox opal.  At least read what I said.  i said you could build a mana base with opal instead of these cards with the innate suggestion that it opens up possibilities (like all good cards do).  I wasn't speaking in terms of the current metagame but was painting with a broader paintbrush.  Its also worth noting that you might decide to keep sol ring or something.  My point was merely this, that mox opal lets you build the mana base differently and thus the deck differently.  In my book thats powerful even if you don't just cut cards out of the current builds and replace them with opals and win a tournament tomorrow. I'm not arguing anything...why then are you trying to refute me?
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 09:38:16 PM by limitedwhole » Logged

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« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2010, 09:46:30 PM »

I didn't say cut sol ring, mana crypt, and mana vault out of your mud build and replace them with mox opal.  At least read what I said.  i said you could build a mana base with opal instead of these cards with the innate suggestion that it opens up possibilities (like all good cards do).  I wasn't speaking in terms of the current metagame but was painting with a broader paintbrush.  Its also worth noting that you might decide to keep sol ring or something.  My point was merely this, that mox opal lets you build the mana base differently and thus the deck differently.  In my book thats powerful even if you don't just cut cards out of the current builds and replace them with opals and win a tournament tomorrow.


I understand your points, but I think that this leads you down a slippery slope.  

The mana base of a deck is a reflection of what the deck aims to do.  We have cards that belong because of the nature of Shops (i.e. Workshops, Wastelands and Ancient Tombs), but we can only make further decisions regarding our mana base when we understand our goals inherent in the deck.  Wastelands, Rishadan Ports and Ghost Quarters all complement Sphere of Resistance, Tangle Wire and Smokestack.  Our fast, re-usable mana in the form of artifact accelerants aids us in our goal of dropping multiple lock pieces over the course of several turns.  Our mana's instant gratification (in that there are no qualifiers to our using it) is of primary importance and should not be underestimated.  The power of MUD is in it's ability to drop a tremendous amount of pressure in a very short period of time.  If we sacrifice some of our power by giving our mana base qualifiers, the overall efficacy of the deck, and our plan, is diluted.

I believe that the best MUD shells in this metagame are prison based shells that seek to lock out an opponent.  I may be biased because of my involvement with Espresso Stax, but I do not think that I am.  

If Espresso Stax is a roughly what we want to run in a MUD build, I would then ask you how you would alter the mana base.  If you believe that Espresso Stax is not what should be run, then I would ask you why you believe Mox Opal in particular adds to the power of a deck that was previously weaker.  I would, in turn, ask you why you believe the addition of Mox Opal makes another Shop deck a contender in this metagame, whereas the lack of Mox Opal makes it something other than a contender.

There is no vitriol in my commentary, so please don't misunderstand me.  I just believe that Mox Opal is superfluous, that Mox Opal does not add enough to warrant consideration.  I do not believe that it is stronger than the accelerants that are currently run, and I do not believe that there is room to cut for it.  The problems that MUD has are not problems due to acceleration, or a lack thereof.  MUD has issues with certain cards sometimes (Nature's Claim, Trygon Predator), but I don't see how Mox Opal solves these problems.

Intelligent debate about the issues is what helps us all reach the stronger variants of decks that we then use in tournaments.  Vacuum theory is nice, but it does not necessarily aid us in our pursuit of a tournament worthy deck that 'solves' a metagame by addressing problems that a given deck had prior to a new cards inclusion.  Is there a given list that you would work with, or do you feel that Mox Opal is best in a current iteration of a popular MUD/Shop deck?  
« Last Edit: September 29, 2010, 09:55:09 PM by Prospero » Logged

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« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2010, 10:01:26 PM »

you guys realize that mox opal is legendary so when you open up with 2 in your hand its like you mulliganed
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« Reply #15 on: September 30, 2010, 04:27:22 AM »

Quote
There is no vitriol in my commentary, so please don't misunderstand me.  I just believe that Mox Opal is superfluous, that Mox Opal does not add enough to warrant consideration.  I do not believe that it is stronger than the accelerants that are currently run, and I do not believe that there is room to cut for it.  The problems that MUD has are not problems due to acceleration, or a lack thereof.  MUD has issues with certain cards sometimes (Nature's Claim, Trygon Predator), but I don't see how Mox Opal solves these problems.

Prospero, I don't think his comments were specific to MUD.  In fact, I don't think anyone is suggesting MUD play this card, are they?  (I would hope not) I agree with everything in your well written post; it's an excellent piece on MUD's current deckbuilding philosophy.  But I don't think he was talking about that at all.
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« Reply #16 on: September 30, 2010, 06:19:06 AM »

@Troy:
Mox Opal

Card Type: Legendary Artifact

Casting Cost: 0

Oracle Text: Metalcraft — Tap: Add one mana of any color to your mana pool. Activate this ability only if you control three or more artifacts.

I'm a bit surprised to have seen no discussion of this card and how it relates to Workshop decks yet. Two main questions come to mind:
1) Does it belong in Shop decks and does this answer differ for different builds?
2) If it does warrant inclusion, how many?


1) Of all the common decks in the format, Workshop decks should be the decks that achieve metalcraft most consistently, still, it is difficult to measure how hard it will be to meet this condition without the benefit of playtesting. The Shop decks with more colored spells will reap the greatest benefit of the fact that Mox Opal produces any color of mana, but because of their non-artifact spells may have more difficulty achieving metalcraft.

2) Wizards added an interesting twist by making Mox Opal Legen (wait for it...) dary. We certainly don't want to have our hand weighed down with redundant Mox Opals that can't be played, but it is worth noting that sacrificing them to smokestacks or welding them out with Goblin Welders can allow the Mox Opals in hand to be played while getting some benefit.

The OP clearly asked the question whether or not Mox Opal could find a place in Workshop decks. Then we have this:

It could be useful in 5-Color stax as mana crypt, sol ring, and vault aren't all that good in that deck, they are just redundant with the workshops as the workshops provide more than enough mana.

Black Lotus
5 Mox
3 Mox Opal

Depends allot on how you build it though.  I think Mox opal is definately a card to remember though even if you don't want to use it with your current build.  It really just lets you build the mana base and therefore the deck completely differently.

Clearly suggesting adding Mox Opal to 5c Stax so you saying:

Quote
There is no vitriol in my commentary, so please don't misunderstand me.  I just believe that Mox Opal is superfluous, that Mox Opal does not add enough to warrant consideration.  I do not believe that it is stronger than the accelerants that are currently run, and I do not believe that there is room to cut for it.  The problems that MUD has are not problems due to acceleration, or a lack thereof.  MUD has issues with certain cards sometimes (Nature's Claim, Trygon Predator), but I don't see how Mox Opal solves these problems.

Prospero, I don't think his comments were specific to MUD.  In fact, I don't think anyone is suggesting MUD play this card, are they?  (I would hope not) I agree with everything in your well written post; it's an excellent piece on MUD's current deckbuilding philosophy.  But I don't think he was talking about that at all.

Clearly is inaccurate and you should read what's posted before responding and getting into a thread. That being said, I agree with Prospero's assesment on Mox Opal in Shop decks and would like to add that this is also very very true for almost all other decks that could support Mox Opal's requirements. These decks (running a lot of Artifacts) don't have any trouble accelerating so the Mox doesn't "solve" anything.
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« Reply #17 on: September 30, 2010, 10:43:40 AM »

Quote
There is no vitriol in my commentary, so please don't misunderstand me.  I just believe that Mox Opal is superfluous, that Mox Opal does not add enough to warrant consideration.  I do not believe that it is stronger than the accelerants that are currently run, and I do not believe that there is room to cut for it.  The problems that MUD has are not problems due to acceleration, or a lack thereof.  MUD has issues with certain cards sometimes (Nature's Claim, Trygon Predator), but I don't see how Mox Opal solves these problems.

Prospero, I don't think his comments were specific to MUD.  In fact, I don't think anyone is suggesting MUD play this card, are they?  (I would hope not) I agree with everything in your well written post; it's an excellent piece on MUD's current deckbuilding philosophy.  But I don't think he was talking about that at all.

If I'm mistaken in addressing these points to him, then my apologies.  Perhaps, in haste, I missed the intended target.

I was on the original TMD (and an incredible noob at the time), and one of the things that I enjoyed was the forum that was presented.  New and inexperienced players could present an opinion and expect a reasoned response back from some of the better minds in the community. 

It has been difficult to do this in the last few years, but I would love to see us return to that to some degree.  I can't offer advice or theory on anything other than Shops (unless it's basic stuff), and so I wanted to, at the very least, put this out there for players who may have been considering Mox Opal in their Workshop decks. 
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« Reply #18 on: September 30, 2010, 11:32:20 AM »

Quote
There is no vitriol in my commentary, so please don't misunderstand me.  I just believe that Mox Opal is superfluous, that Mox Opal does not add enough to warrant consideration.  I do not believe that it is stronger than the accelerants that are currently run, and I do not believe that there is room to cut for it.  The problems that MUD has are not problems due to acceleration, or a lack thereof.  MUD has issues with certain cards sometimes (Nature's Claim, Trygon Predator), but I don't see how Mox Opal solves these problems.

Prospero, I don't think his comments were specific to MUD.  In fact, I don't think anyone is suggesting MUD play this card, are they?  (I would hope not) I agree with everything in your well written post; it's an excellent piece on MUD's current deckbuilding philosophy.  But I don't think he was talking about that at all.

If I'm mistaken in addressing these points to him, then my apologies.  Perhaps, in haste, I missed the intended target.

I was on the original TMD (and an incredible noob at the time), and one of the things that I enjoyed was the forum that was presented.  New and inexperienced players could present an opinion and expect a reasoned response back from some of the better minds in the community. 

It has been difficult to do this in the last few years, but I would love to see us return to that to some degree.  I can't offer advice or theory on anything other than Shops (unless it's basic stuff), and so I wanted to, at the very least, put this out there for players who may have been considering Mox Opal in their Workshop decks. 

Your post was great!  And a very valuable contribution to the discussion.  I think you articulated the place of Opal in MUD extremely well.  Much better than I could have.  I very much appreciate you putting in the time for such an insightful post Smile

Peace,

-Troy
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« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2010, 08:48:09 AM »

I have assembled a shop deck that is putting up some good numbers on MWS and locally.  I have not run it in tourneys yet, but I have played many "tourney" decks via MWS from some fine players and came out with a W.  I run 28 mana and cheap sphere/chalice with mox opal replacing pearl.  My deck is predominantly artifact, but wants access to all colors except white to some small degree.  The times I opened with opal and did not get immediate mana out of it was rare (and most of those times an extra 1 colorless wouldn't have made a huge difference anyway), but the times it taps for R,G,U, or B vs 1 colorless (white) have been very nice.  The deck in essence wants colored mana (via city, lotus, mox, etc.) or big mana (shop, tomb, academy, vault).  Over all the games the -1 colorless when it stalls vs. the +1 rainbow color when it works has definitely warranted inclusion of opal in my deck.  I am always wary of posting my decklists before taking them to a tourney win, so I apologize for that, but last time I innovated and posted, I ended up facing 2 of my own deck in a tourney.  I'll wait until I win a sizeable tourney before sharing the list, but let this suffice to say that a shop deck wanting access to 3+ colors while running 90%+ artifact spells can easily benefit from opal over an off-colored moxen.
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« Reply #20 on: October 28, 2010, 07:05:38 PM »

Assume 5-color

I have been reading and thinking about opal a good deal and the best comparisons seem to be mox diamond(no real drawback with crucible) or lotus petal(if we consider it's effect on a single turn).  With those in mind, I am reminded that petal was terrible because a single rainbow mana was not both the 2 colorless it often costs just to cast petal through spheres .  Chalice + sphere were also he reasons for exclusion of diamond(at the expense of something besides a mana source).  Nothing with a drawback is so good that it warrants extending the manabase.

When we talk about swapping existing sources, I can't see a reasonable assumption that 1 rainbow mana is better than 3 from vault or 2 from ring.  Are you relying on a workshop every game???    I don't see how you drop the stereotypical 3 threats in 2 turns(even more important now that opponent potentially has pierce and claim in addition to force).  If you slow the deck down by 1-2 mana on those integral opening turns, you are doing nothing to offset the natural limitation of shop.dec=the likelihood of not getting to tap a shop early.  Also., it devalues your toolbox when you have to tutor for a shop early. 

I know it's an old thread...just was interested by this discussion..and have found out that my wife and I are expecting!  Also, work has been rough lately.
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Thegreatgonzo
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« Reply #21 on: October 28, 2010, 07:37:34 PM »

Back in the days, everyone and his brother sweared to god lotus petal didn't deserve a slot in a "tier1 deck".
We all agree Lotus petal is now a staple in almost every decent U/B combo-control deck.

Same could be true for Mox opal. Even if it doesn't break the format right now, we should keep an eye on everything that cost 0 and taps for  {U}
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« Reply #22 on: October 28, 2010, 11:15:35 PM »

Back in the days, everyone and his brother sweared to god lotus petal didn't deserve a slot in a "tier1 deck".
We all agree Lotus petal is now a staple in almost every decent U/B combo-control deck.

Same could be true for Mox opal. Even if it doesn't break the format right now, we should keep an eye on everything that cost 0 and taps for  {U}

while it is quite possible for a future deck to utiltize this, i dont see 5-color workshop prison getting a huge benefit from it.  At best, you take a mox and make it a different mox.  this is a .01% change if it even works.
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« Reply #23 on: October 29, 2010, 01:30:26 AM »

Now with Mox Opal, isn't there any chance to make Master Transmuter works? Workshop, Opal, Transmuter on t1 seems nice.
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« Reply #24 on: October 29, 2010, 10:56:57 AM »

Now with Mox Opal, isn't there any chance to make Master Transmuter works? Workshop, Opal, Transmuter on t1 seems nice.
In your described start, you aren't getting any mana out of Opal.
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« Reply #25 on: October 29, 2010, 12:50:55 PM »

The reason Opal is good is because it taps for anything and cost 0. The reason Opal is bad is that there is only going to be one on the table at a time, and you must have three artifacts. Those two constraints on it's design hinder it's playability in Type 1 alot. But when theres the artifact deck that needs colored mana, and is straight up artifacts, we'll see a good use for this gem in waiting.
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