TheManaDrain.com
November 28, 2014, 12:32:01 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
Author Topic: Doomsday 2010  (Read 12162 times)
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2815

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #60 on: July 26, 2010, 11:30:29 AM »

Once you have to resolve spells after DDay to win, why not just storm out rather than running often-dead cards main?  Like emidln keeps saying, the point of Emrakul is to get around opponent's with a grip full of countermagic.  It's otherwise inferior to a storm kill.

Slightly off-topic, but I just starting learning his Legacy Doomsday build and wow is it ever different than vintage storm decks...but fun!  Anyone bothering to read through this thread should probably try it out.
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
Delha
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1285



View Profile
« Reply #61 on: July 26, 2010, 11:49:28 AM »

Once you have to resolve spells after DDay to win, why not just storm out rather than running often-dead cards main?  Like emidln keeps saying, the point of Emrakul is to get around opponent's with a grip full of countermagic.  It's otherwise inferior to a storm kill.
I answered this earlier, requoting below.

2) I think that you're overstating the ability of the Dday/Shelldock win to play through hate.  Is Doomsday easier to cast through Spheres than Ad Naus?  Of course, but that doesn't mean it's easy to do so.[snip]
2. I'm not trying to say that I think it's easy, and I didn't mean to sound that way. I just feel that it's less difficult that trying to storm out an opponent with 13 sphere effects. Neither is going to be fun, I just feel that the most abundant lock pieces in MUD happen to be the same ones that hurt ANT the most. I'd rather run a list where the majority of their hate is at half-value and they have a few pieces that wreck me, as opposed one where the majority of their hate is crippling and the rest are at half-value.
What is the worst thing a shop deck will do to storm combo? Drop lots of Sphere effects. What is the core of MUD? 13 sphere effects.
Logged

I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
AmbivalentDuck
Tournament Organizers
Basic User
**
Posts: 2815

Exile Ancestral and turn Tiago sideways.

ambivalentduck ambivalentduck ambivalentduck
View Profile
« Reply #62 on: July 26, 2010, 12:03:41 PM »

I should have been clearer, I was specifically referencing Channel and Lich's Mirror.  Running Shelldock and Emrakul is fine since it's only one truly dead card and even then prevents random losses to Grindstone.  Running Channel and Mirror is very questionable.
Logged

A link to the GitHub project where I store all of my Cockatrice decks.
Team TMD - If you feel that team secrecy is bad for Vintage put this in your signature
Any interest in putting together/maintaining a Github Git project that hosts proven decks of all major archetypes and documents their changes over time?
Delha
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1285



View Profile
« Reply #63 on: July 26, 2010, 12:31:29 PM »

I should have been clearer, I was specifically referencing Channel and Lich's Mirror.  Running Shelldock and Emrakul is fine since it's only one truly dead card and even then prevents random losses to Grindstone.  Running Channel and Mirror is very questionable.
Ah, gotcha. I'm in agreement that Channel/Mirror seems sketchy, although my personal complaint with it is the life requirement and chance of stalling out. If ones reset with 8-9 cards, and Mirror is not in your opening seven, the loop dies. This also just as vulnerable to countermagic and lock pieces (especially Chalice) as a Tendrils kill.
Logged

I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
mistervader
Basic User
**
Posts: 167


View Profile Email
« Reply #64 on: July 26, 2010, 11:53:39 PM »

Be that as it may, your problem with Shops is that aside from running 13 Spheres, they will also run Wasteland + Strip Mine. If it were only the Spheres, Shelldockul is definitely *the* plan.

I've seen earlier versions of the Shelldockul deck running Amulet of Vigor. I know it's janky outside of the combo, but at least it can be cast off Dark Ritual mana, and if you had two of them in play, you get to pay for the Shelldock Isle's U activation with itself since you get to untap twice. Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the Wasteland issue, and again, it's terrible on its own, and Time Vault + Amulet of Vigor is not so hot, when you could just run Voltaic Key and a better Vault deck instead, if that were the case.

Without adding more dead cards like Cloud/Amulet/Dream's Grip/Twiddle, passing a turn is *seriously* a problem, because Unlike Oath, you pass the turn with half your life and majority of your deck Exiled. Oath at least doesn't do anything drastic and disadvantageous to its own gamestate when you play it. Overall, you will discover that you would need three "dead" cards in your deck: Shelldock, Emrakul, and the untapper. Mirror Doomsday only used two dead cards: Channel and Mirror, and neither screwed you over if you held it while comboing out.

The main reason I like Channel + Mirror is that once Channel is running, Sphere effects become largely irrelevant. With one Sphere effect, the combo of Ancestral into Lotus into Channel will cost you 2U instead of U (The 1GG is of course paid for by the Black Lotus.). When looping, you just pay an extra 1 life with Channel to pay for the mana required by the Sphere. As more Sphere effects occur, it gets progressively worse, of course, but Channel + Mirror lets you sidestep a lot of stuff (Like Leyline of the Void.), and Channel-looping is largely aided by stacking draw effects then killing yourself (Ancestral on the stack, kill yourself. If your loop will end up with 10 cards and Ancestral is on the stack, you will get all 10 cards in this loop, then AR is in your yard.). Normally, Sensei's Divining Top is your best friend here. Stack two looks and a draw: One look before you draw, the draw, then one look after you draw.

In 200 goldfishes, I have yet to fizzle out with the Mirror Loop. The next cheapest combo is the Desire stack (UB), and while it has less dead cards (Only R/D or Beacon since Desire in a combo deck isn't too shabby.), the catch is you can't be holding R/D or Beacon in your hand, and that's a big problem. Jace is NOT an option in Doomsday right now. I've tested Jace in Doomsday enough times to know that this is one deck that won't be buddies with Jace. Maybe See Beyond has potential, though.

Personally, I don't think Shelldockul is a valid plan A for Vintage Doomsday. I actually play Shelldockul + Tendrils in Legacy, and I get away with having Emrakul as my plan A in Legacy, but that's not quite the story in Vintage, where you not only worry about Wasteland, but Strip Mine, too, so a single Pithing Needle doesn't solve your problems. This is why I believe that though Mirror and Channel are dead cards on their own, that should be the core kill in all your stacks, unless you're buried under Sphere effects or facing way too much countermagic. It's also not impossible for one to just cast Channel into Emrakul, which is like a pseudo Show and Tell for you, although it costs 15 life and GG, and my last Vintage Doomsday deck already featured one Bayou and one Trop, so it wasn't impossible to hardcast Channel, either. The only problem is, your dead cards become Channel, Mirror, Emrakul, Shelldock, and potentially, your Twiddle effect.

To be honest, I was fine running Doomsday until the M10 rule changes happened. R/D was a really awesome trick at the time with the Mirror loop (I was recastin Desire for 100.), but when R/D could fetch only SB cards, it became significantly less powerful. The fact that the deck wants both FOW and Street Wraith in place to really maximize your protection and free draws into the kill also proved too difficult as FOW and SW really compete for slots. Taking away FOW means you're running a heavy B-based deck, and I think GWSx is better at that game. Taking away SW means you will only have Ponder, BS, Top, possibly Gush, and AR to draw into the stack, as opposed to all of those +4 other cards. Of those options, only Top and Gush draw into the stack for free.

Anyways, that's my input for Doomsday at the moment. Until M10, my magic career's health was literally tied to Doomsday's viability in the meta, so I definitely have a lot of interest in reviving the deck if it's possible. At some point, a compromise has to be made, and I'm not sure which one to make of the seven...

1. Do I focus on a plan that dies to holding the combo pieces in hand? (Shelldockul/Mind's Desire)
2. Do I focus on a plan that dies to Wasteland? (Shelldockul)
3. Do I focus on a plan that dies to countermagic? (Mind's Desire/Mirror)
4. Do I focus on a plan that dies to Sphere Effects? (Mind's Desire/Mirror)
5. Do I focus on a plan that is, on average, the least risky kill of all, but costs the most mana? (Mind's Desire)
6. Do I focus on a plan that could potentially fizzle out on me? (Mirror)
7. Do I fill my deck with dead cards? (Focusing on more than one plan)

That's my cost-benefit analyses for each plan, and what compromises need to be made for each plan. Hopefully, from here, we can look into ways to mitigate these compromises and come up with the best hybrid.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2010, 12:44:43 AM by mistervader » Logged
Delha
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1285



View Profile
« Reply #65 on: July 27, 2010, 11:20:59 AM »

I'd rather risk five strips over thirteen spheres. Also, note that Dream's Grip (or Twiddle) counteracts a strip on board. Only Hurkyl's is likely to save you from spheres on the table, and you're adding an extra  {2} {U} to your plan at minimum. Dream's Grip is just U extra.
Logged

I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
mistervader
Basic User
**
Posts: 167


View Profile Email
« Reply #66 on: July 27, 2010, 09:26:47 PM »

I'd rather risk five strips over thirteen spheres. Also, note that Dream's Grip (or Twiddle) counteracts a strip on board. Only Hurkyl's is likely to save you from spheres on the table, and you're adding an extra  {2} {U} to your plan at minimum. Dream's Grip is just U extra.

Fair enough, although if you're really keen on that plan, you will probably want 4 Street Wraiths in the deck. It's the easiest way to get to your stack, stat.
Logged
Delha
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 1285



View Profile
« Reply #67 on: July 28, 2010, 11:39:59 AM »

I'd rather risk five strips over thirteen spheres. Also, note that Dream's Grip (or Twiddle) counteracts a strip on board. Only Hurkyl's is likely to save you from spheres on the table, and you're adding an extra  {2} {U} to your plan at minimum. Dream's Grip is just U extra.
Fair enough, although if you're really keen on that plan, you will probably want 4 Street Wraiths in the deck. It's the easiest way to get to your stack, stat.
Actually, I was recommendingTops, since they help out pre-Doomsday as well.
Logged

I suppose it's mostly the thought that this format is just one big Mistake; and not even a very sophisticated one at that.
Much like humanity itself.
mistervader
Basic User
**
Posts: 167


View Profile Email
« Reply #68 on: July 28, 2010, 09:53:06 PM »

Oh, if only running both didn't kill my slots... Razz

My older builds of Doomsday had 1 Top, 4 Street Wraith. I should... re-examine those old lists.
Logged
Pages: 1 2 [3]
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.117 seconds with 20 queries.