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Author Topic: Back after a year, mono Black  (Read 4813 times)
TopSecret
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« Reply #30 on: July 11, 2010, 09:33:06 PM »

For all I know, Stifle is about as good as it's ever been. I don't know if it's the right move to cut it. It's just my personal bias from past experience. I've never been content with playing Stifle in this style of deck before, and I can't imagine very many good situations to use it except against a fetchland or on a single activation of a Time Vault to buy a winning attack phase. Every time I've had a Stifle in my hand against Storm and the opponent went off, he cast a Will and/or found enough resources to Duress it out of my hand. In the meantime, the Stifle would have been better as a counterspell to buy time or counter a tutor or business spell instead of waiting for the opponent to pile up enough resources to play around my Stifle before comboing out. And I've always leaned towards minimal mana denial cards. Null Rod is decent because it serves multiple purposes besides mana denial and Wasteland is good because it can double as a mana source if the opponent has plenty of land. Stifle has mostly only been good for me in the situations when the opponent was a little mana screwed and the Stifle pushed them over the edge by countering a fetchland, but a counterspell like Daze or Spell Pierce would have been good in those games, too, since the opponent would be too low on mana to function efficiently anyway. So Stifle has aways looked like a win-more card in the games when I've played it. But that's just my experience. If you think it's worth it, then go for it. There's a pretty good chance I'm wrong or talking about some context that's not really relevant right now, especially considering that I've seen other people play Stifle in fish and do well with it. The list you posted is more or less what I would build for UB Faerie Fish, all except for those two Stifles. (Plus I like Curiosity, but that's a whole other kettle of fish I probably shouldn't get into.)

I think countering and/or Duressing the Oath out of the opponent's hand is the way to go. You play so much disruption that I think that's a decent plan. Planning for the opponent resolving Oath seems like a waste of resources since it's difficult to predict which creature they'll Oath up and there's not good disruption available that can take out Terastodon, Iona, and whatever else they might have access to.

I think you can bank on countering/Duressing a Tinker most of the time too since you play so much disruption. Worst case you can tutor up Edict and try to resolve it if the opponent gets an Inkwell or a Sphinx of the Steel Wind into play. The problem is that if you put in too much specific hate for a given creature like Iona or Inkwell, you run the risk of drawing it while the opponent is resolving something like Vault/Key. If you had more info on the meta, it might be possible to have a better idea of what kind of risks to take, but for a vacuum I think the maindeck can't get a whole lot more flexible for UB Faerie Fish.

If you want to maindeck another answer to Tinker creatures and the like, Curfew can pitch to Force and it answers stuff like Inkwell. It also returns Spellstutter Sprite, which is neat.

If you are worried about stuff like Oath and Tinker since you don't have a way to test against them for real, it's not a perfect method, but what I would do in your position is shuffle up the deck and draw some hands, play them out to the second turn under the assumption that the opponent was going for a second turn Oath or Tinker. Would you be able to counter and/or duress it away? And then what if they had something like Force or Spellpierce backup? What about third turn? If not, is there something in your hand that doesn't seem to be pulling it's weight? Could that card be something else that could help deal with Tinker and/or Oath while still being useful in other matchups?

Stuff like first turn Oath or Tinker is kind of nutty, so I wouldn't really worry about that as much. If you have stuff like Daze, Spell Pierce, or Force to counter first turn Oath or Tinker pretty consistently, then that's even better, but probably not a necessity.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2010, 09:59:31 PM by TopSecret » Logged

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urweak
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« Reply #31 on: August 03, 2010, 10:42:00 PM »

Ive been wondering if the new Phylactery Lich in M11 is better then Negator. With the artifacts in your deck it might not be a long shoot to get it out.
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« Reply #32 on: August 04, 2010, 12:12:18 PM »

The difference between Negator and Lich is that Negator doesn't die to an opposing Hurkyl's Recall/Nature's Claim/Trygon Predator.  You primarily use both against combo and Drain decks as a clock.  In that context, neither is particularly good against Tinker critters, neither kills faster than the other (though Lich requires a Mox and Ritual to come down turn 1!!!), and Negator is unlikely to take damage from anything but Bob.

My vote if you elect to run a 3-mana 5/5 is Negator.  I'd also suggest just splashing green for Tarmogoyf and Nature's Claim if you need a butt.
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« Reply #33 on: August 04, 2010, 08:54:05 PM »

Just made top 4 with a decklist like this:
22 Lands
12 swmap
2 Urborg
3 Dark Depths
4 Wasteland
1 Strip

8 creatures
4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant

4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Vampiric Tutor
1 Sadistic Sacramanets
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Null Rod
4 Dark Ritual
2 Diabolic Edict
1 Helm of Obedience
1 Necropotence
1 Mox Jet
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal

SB went like
4 Bitterblossom
3 Sadistic Sacrament
3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
2 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Diabolic Edict

It was VERY consistent, which was surprising, also hexmages can double as planeswalker killers.  You can even win a game resolving Sadistic Sacraments, as most Tezz and TPS decks only have 3 win cons in their main deck.  I dominated every match up I had, except for a shop game.  One game he had turn 1 Trini, and the other I gambled on a hand and it was a bad decision (counted on drawing lands, but didn't).  The way I see this deck improving is splashing green for nature's claim/oxidize, and running some Tarmogoyf's for beats, because it is rare to have enough turns to be able to beat to death with Hexmages/Gatekeepers/Confidants. Chalice @ 2 also kills this deck, which is why Oxidize/Nature's claim is necessary.  Deck is easily capable of a turn 2 win, and quite often wins turn 3-4 very consistently. 
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Delha
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« Reply #34 on: August 05, 2010, 12:22:12 PM »

Grats on making T4!

Did you happen to face Fish or MUD at all with this? I'd have expected the former to be your worst matchup, especially since they have Wastes for your Depths, removal for the token, bigger dudes than you, and are largely unaffected by SadSac.

I figured MUD would be a toss-up, largely depending on how quickly you can get the token on board and whether or not they have Duplicant. Double Hexmage is admittedly sweet against Golems. With a light manabase, getting locked out through spheres sounds entirely possible as well.

All of this is armchair theoreycraft of course, I haven't touched monoblack in ages.
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« Reply #35 on: August 05, 2010, 01:10:29 PM »

Congrats!  I'm also curious why you decided to forgo the Dark Times tech of Emissary of Despair vs MUD.  It seems like an early Emissary will quickly take them down since they have relatively few answers to them.
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« Reply #36 on: August 05, 2010, 08:24:04 PM »

Thank you guys for congratulating me.  Ill give a brief break down of my battles, it was only 12 people, so it was cut to top 4 instead of top 8.

First match i faced was mono red stax (I think...he was playing welders).  First game i had a hand with a little dispruption, and was able to sac hexmage to dark depths to win by turn 4.  lucky me.  second game i decided to side in the 4 bitterblossoms, and pithing needle, taking out helmline combo.  This proved to be the right move, as we both played out our hands a little bit, he resolved lodestone and two smokestacks with a welder in play.  Due to bitterblossom, I was able to keep up with his smokestacks and chump block his golem until the entire board was clear.  From there, I was holding hexmage and dark depths in hand.  i played those out, he played strip mine, i play pithing calling strip and win on the next turn.  that was a really fun match to play.

second match I was up against a nice guy playing tog.  First game involved going back and forth dropping lands, i get hexmage and dark depths into play, he attacks with tog trying to bait me into blocking with hexmage, i let the dmg go through.  next turn (like turn 4 or 5) i sac hexmage to dark depths, he plays fire/ice tapping my marit lage to hang on for one more turn.  he must draw about 15 or so cards next turn which makes me very nervous, but draws no answers (bounce).  I win next turn.  I don't think i sideboarded anything in for this game, feeling content with the match up, he goes to work bringing in cards from his sb though.  Second game I have leyline in opening hand, which is good since I know he was running intuition/AK draw engine as well as yawgmoths.  the game plays out like the first one, with me swinging for lethal with marit lage.

third match ended up being ubg tezz/planeswalkers.  first game on turn 1 or 2 i sad sac removing a tinker fatty, tezz, and jace.  we continue playing, i think i have this game in the bag.  about turn 4 or 5 he gets infinite turns and asks if i will concede this game.  i say i will scoop if he shows me a wincon.  he has a jace in hand, so i scoop game 1.  Again, I dont side anything in because the decks best match up is tezz (it was pretty much designed to beat tezz).  Game 2 i get a marit lage into play by turn 3, and he scoops.  Game 3 I started a little slow, i lead with a little disruption and slow him down, and sac a hexmage to kill an early played jace. i dont draw much after this.  i assemble my hexmage and dark depths, pass the turn, waiting to break at the end of his turn.  he plays his 2nd jace this turn, and misplays by attempting to unsummon my hexmage, i respond my sac'ing to dark depths, and win next turn.

fourth match i ID with another guy who was 3-0 as we were both undefeated and guaranteed to make it to top 4.  

we contemplate a t4 split, but one player requested we play it out so we did.  this is when i played my first true mud deck.

i knew he was playing mud, he knew i was playing mono black.

game 1 i lead with some disruption via thoughtseize and wasteland, but ultimately i should i have mulliganed the hand as it did not have much gas in it.  he resolves a razormane masticore and i dont draw anything the next 4 turns and he takes game 1.  i side out helmline combo for 4 bitterblossoms and a gatekeeper, and take out sad sac for another gatekeeper, and i beleive i took something else out as i believe i added in a couple edicts as well.  game 2 i keep a hand i shouldnt have, it had 2 wastelands but only 1 black mana, i state i shouldnt keep the hand i have but i am probably going to, he says the same thing, and i assume from this he is vulnerable to wasteland.  I play wasteland, go, he says uh oh, plays shop, trini, i kill shop, but trini resolves, he passes the turn.  i play a second wasteland, pass the turn, he plays ancient tomb, passes.  i kill wasteland, drop my lonely black, and pass again.  i remember i had both a hexmage and a ritual in hand, but due to trini, i was locked out.  he play draw go for a couple more turns, and he ends up resolving a chalice @ 2.  from here, there is honestly no way this deck can win with a chalice at 2 and a trini in play.  This deck is all 2 drops.  I make him kill me, and he does.  

I went 3-1-1, and the funny thing was, this was a borrowed deck.  i went into this tournament planning on playing a GWSx/TPS hybrid and brought my binder of rares and collection of cards to the tournament, but i forgot to bring my deck box, d'oh!  A very nice fellow said he had an extra mono black deck if i wanted to play it, and i did not want to walk away from an hour drive empty handed.

I was very pleased with how the deck played, but really, the lack of artifact removal is absolutely killer (as shown in the MUD match up).  Other than gate to phyrexia, i do not believe there is a single way to get rid of artifacts requiring black cards.  From here, there are 2 choices, either run nev's disk (which i think is far too slow and expensive), or splash another color.  You could splash green for goyfs and oxidize/nature's claim/krosan grip, or blue for more card draw and bounce.  Or splash white and include academy rector and divine intervention as another wincon with hexmage Razz (kidding, kidding).  Running with the green idea, i came up with a decklist today that would be B/G dark times/do you fear death/etc.  here is the deck list i came up with.

4 wasteland
1 Strip mine
2 Urborg
3 Dark depths
3 Bayou
1 Forest
4 Swamp
4 Verdant catacombs

4 Vampire Hexmage
4 Dark Confidant
3 Tarmogoyf

3 Duress
4 Thoughtsieze
1 Vamp Tutor
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Necropotence
3 Null Rod
1 Nature's Claim
4 Dark Ritual
2 Oxidize
1 Dem Consult
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Life from the loam
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Emerald


Sb
4 leyline
1 helm
1 chains of meph
3 gatekeeper
2 edict
2 pithing
1 rav trap
1 sad sac

i wanted to fit the emissarys of despair in there somewhere, but i couldnt find a way to make it fit.  the helmline combo is what got pushed out of main deck into the sb as a consequence of splashing another color. i wasnt too happy about letting this wincon getting pushed out of the main deck, but i believe that with green, the beating with goyfs becomes the replacement wincon (as before the beating with hexamges and/or bob isnt that intimidating or quick).  There is now a way to stop mud decks, as your gofys will most likely be able to kill lodestone golems and/or oxidze/nature's claim will also be able to destroy chalices, trinispheres, tangle wires, and other lock mechanisms.

The SB can be tuned more finely depending on your meta, so you could take out what you want and add emissarys, smothers, perish, damnation, etc.  i think smother would be the best card to run in the side to counter fish, because you are also running edict and gatekeeper, and with smother you can kill their goyf (you know they wont sac it to edict or gatekeeper), and none of these are stopped by gaddock teeg.  not to mention you run your own goyfs, and their only way of dealing with marit lage is to let you gain 20 life, which should be more than enough time to get another depths into play, or cast LTFL and get depths back from the GY.  I also believe LFTL is better than crucible, as its cheaper. Another option would be to run grim discovery either in maindeck or sideboard.  let me know what you guys think.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2010, 07:44:17 PM by Djinn » Logged
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