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Author Topic: [Free Article] Visiting Wizards, Reprints and the Reserved List  (Read 21848 times)
FlyFlySideOfFry
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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2010, 09:17:54 PM »

I think the reserved list was and will always be a horrible idea. So much crap is there that doesn't deserve to be there and the reasoning behind it even existing has more holes than a sponge. However, I also have a strong sense that WotC needs to be extremely careful when breaking policies. For better or for worse (worse) this is a promise they have made. In order to avoid allienating loyal customers I feel there is one very simple course of action they should take. That is to reprint the big cards that aren't on the reserved list. Mana Drain, Imperial Seal, and Grim Tutor are just a few Vintage examples. If they wanted to do the same for Legacy there are an equally large amount of examples like Imperial Recruiter or hell even Tarmogoyf the way it keeps climbing. With these reprints it easily tests the waters without breaking anything. They never made a policy for cards like that so they are free to reprint them all they want with nobody being able to argue against it. Thus they can gather data as to whether these reprints helped or hurt the format.

Now as for going any further, I think the next step would be to take a crack at format limiting Vintage staples that are on the reserved list. Cards like Time Vault, Bazaar, and Workshop cost enough that being only Vintage legal makes it very hard to justify picking up unless you have a big non-proxy environment. They are also less risky to reprint in that they cost less than power 9. I don't think dual lands are the problem because lets face it, they're not that expensive by comparisson and they're legal in more than one format. They're also almost a perfect investment in that they'll always be worth more 365 days later. They could probably do something similar for Legacy with cards like Tabernacle. As such this gathers even more data and allows them to make the most important decision, whether to reprint power 9.

Now I'm not saying my solution is the best. Hell, to go through all this it would probably take 3-5 years. However, I do think it is also the safest way for them to break their policy. Should they follow it all? I don't think so. I'm sure somebody else can come up with a better plan. However, I think it is absolutely critical that they do step one and reprint cards like Mana Drain and Grim Tutor before letting the flood gates spill open on reprints. Why blindly break the reserved policy when you can do tests first?
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« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2010, 01:02:17 AM »

Steve that was a very well-written article as usual and I think it's great that WOTC is reaching out to members of the community for their input.

That said, I've been a continual avid player/collector/investor of Magic for 15 years, and as you rightly predict, am "alarmed" at the talk of abolishing the Reserve list and the company going back on their word. I love Magic as much as anyone, and am thrilled to see its success and continual growth culiminating in a 2200+ player GP, particularly since I started going to them in 1997 at the 2nd one ever. But it drives me mad that people are discussing reprinting dual lands and other reserved cards as if they're unable to find them, especially when there are literally thousands of unopened Revised packs and and old sealed product out there! (and yes available from reputable dealers who don't search them; check ebay or other stores- just 2 weeks ago I purchased 3 packs of English P3K from Star City). My friends and I enjoy treating ourselves to these packs for limited play, and in turn sell/trade the rares to circulate more into the community. And I'm proud of the collection I have which consists of 300+ boosters and 30+ starters (including 7 Revised and a Beta), and have invested in such knowing that WOTC will keep their word and never reprint select cards that can be found in them.

I support Legacy and all other format's success, but the fact is that not everyone is able to play in all those formats! There are many things I wish I could afford in life but cannot; welcome to life!  Some people's delusionary sense of self-entitlement is mind-boggling!  Instead of relying on WOTC to forsake the Reserved list which has successfully been in place for many years, people need to admit that the cards are out there if you want them. Try being more resourceful and building your collection to trade-up, or network with other playtest groups, or get a store to sponsor you. etc.  If that doesn't work, Legacy will be online within the year and Tabernacles can be had on Modo for $5 instead of $250. I fully believe Vintage's future is on Magic online as well and that Power will be available there for people that want to play, and for the format to grow/sustain.

  The bottom line is that Magic will never be "just" a card game. It has always been conceived to be a COLLECTABLE card game, and was even PATENTED as such! And the integrity of the game and company would be severely undermined if they turn their back on collectors. Chronicles wasn't pretty and I think they learned from it.

  Lastly regarding the article- that is indeed Dakkon Blackblade in the picture; and you're mistaken about the collation of the Beta rare sheet. It's not top-down but side-side rares can be together, so you can pull a Black Lotus with a Mox Emerald in a starter, but not a Lotus and Ancestrall Recall (this was mentioned in an Arcana within past few years).

  Again thank you for the consistently great quality writing!
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« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2010, 03:17:52 AM »

Steve, I'm generally supportive of things that benefit eternal formats, even if they cost me something personally. You've made a convincing case for the stability of alpha and beta values, notwithstanding reprints, due to its value among collectors. But you almost entirely ignore unlimited power (as well as revised duels).

Since unlimited power doesn't hold nearly as much value to collectors, isn't it reasonable to assume that the value of unlimited power, particularly non-mint (and lets face it -- non-mint unlimited power is the majority of what's out there) is essentially a reflection of the minimum price of DCI tournament legal entry into vintage? And the same for revised duels for legacy?  Is it realistic to think that this value wouldn't be greatly diluted if enough of these cards were reprinted to noticeably impact card availability?  I'm skeptical

I'm not saying that power shouldn't be reprinted, just that I don't think it can really be the win-win-win your article implies.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?
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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2010, 03:27:16 AM »



I'm not saying that power shouldn't be reprinted, just that I don't think it can really be the win-win-win your article implies.

Anyone else have thoughts on this?

I think they should release a "Vintage Starter Kit" with white borders, bad/goofy art (say, Phil Foglio) of Moxen, Shops, Bazaars, Drains, Dual Lands (1 each of all listed. 1 Shop, 1 Bazaar, 1 Underground Sea etc) and 1 random Vintage Staple (could be a Moat, could be a Sinkhole). But all cards would have regular magic backs and be legal for formats those cards are legal in.  People would acquire these, and then trade shops away for a drain, or trade all non-blue duals for a few blue duals (or an extra bazaar).  No one would really want these new cards, except people that really need them.  That is, everyone who doesn't already have their power.

I would suggest that such a move wouldn't hurt the value of Unlimited power or revised duals that badly, and more people would have a foothold to join the format.

Then again, I'm not an economist!
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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2010, 03:48:14 AM »

@ FlyFlySideOfFry:

Reprinting cards from P3k is likely the most stupid move wizards could make. The prices will crash so hard due to the white borders of P3K and the possibility of foiling out P3K playables.


Steve that was a very well-written article as usual and I think it's great that WOTC is reaching out to members of the community for their input.

That said, I've been a continual avid player/collector/investor of Magic for 15 years, and as you rightly predict, am "alarmed" at the talk of abolishing the Reserve list and the company going back on their word. I love Magic as much as anyone, and am thrilled to see its success and continual growth culiminating in a 2200+ player GP, particularly since I started going to them in 1997 at the 2nd one ever. But it drives me mad that people are discussing reprinting dual lands and other reserved cards as if they're unable to find them, especially when there are literally thousands of unopened Revised packs and and old sealed product out there! (and yes available from reputable dealers who don't search them; check ebay or other stores- just 2 weeks ago I purchased 3 packs of English P3K from Star City). My friends and I enjoy treating ourselves to these packs for limited play, and in turn sell/trade the rares to circulate more into the community. And I'm proud of the collection I have which consists of 300+ boosters and 30+ starters (including 7 Revised and a Beta), and have invested in such knowing that WOTC will keep their word and never reprint select cards that can be found in them.

I support Legacy and all other format's success, but the fact is that not everyone is able to play in all those formats! There are many things I wish I could afford in life but cannot; welcome to life!  Some people's delusionary sense of self-entitlement is mind-boggling!  Instead of relying on WOTC to forsake the Reserved list which has successfully been in place for many years, people need to admit that the cards are out there if you want them. Try being more resourceful and building your collection to trade-up, or network with other playtest groups, or get a store to sponsor you. etc.  If that doesn't work, Legacy will be online within the year and Tabernacles can be had on Modo for $5 instead of $250. I fully believe Vintage's future is on Magic online as well and that Power will be available there for people that want to play, and for the format to grow/sustain.

  The bottom line is that Magic will never be "just" a card game. It has always been conceived to be a COLLECTABLE card game, and was even PATENTED as such! And the integrity of the game and company would be severely undermined if they turn their back on collectors. Chronicles wasn't pretty and I think they learned from it.

  Lastly regarding the article- that is indeed Dakkon Blackblade in the picture; and you're mistaken about the collation of the Beta rare sheet. It's not top-down but side-side rares can be together, so you can pull a Black Lotus with a Mox Emerald in a starter, but not a Lotus and Ancestrall Recall (this was mentioned in an Arcana within past few years).

  Again thank you for the consistently great quality writing!

Thanks for voicing exactly where I stand on this. No one is entitled to nothing. please read this:

http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/12/16/video-game-collectors-feeling-the-pain-of-re-releases/


Why do we need to bring down prices? The most expensive videogame went for $42000,- and the most expensive comic went for $1000000,-. i'm pretty sure, paying $200 for an imperial seal is affordable.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 04:27:08 AM by BruiZar » Logged
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« Reply #35 on: March 03, 2010, 05:15:30 AM »

I'm all for reprints...only thing i'd like to note is that i would absolutely HATE to see a new-border mox.....The new border is the only reservation i have when it comes to reprints. Also i think they should be white bordered....I know that might seem strange...But after all, we don't want them to be more worth then those cards we've all had and bought for years. If they reach the same price it's alright though.
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« Reply #36 on: March 03, 2010, 05:51:05 AM »

Quote
I support Legacy and all other format's success, but the fact is that not everyone is able to play in all those formats! There are many things I wish I could afford in life but cannot; welcome to life!


The thing is, from a business perspective -WotC's perspective- it makes no sense to shut people out from participating in the game in the way they want to because the cards are too expensive for them to afford.  From a business perspective, it makes no sense at all to limit youself and your revenus by purposely failing to utilize your own intelectual property.  From a business perspective, it makes no sense not to produce a product for which there is a great amount of demand- especially if it is within your power to produce such a product. 

Peace.

-Troy
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« Reply #37 on: March 03, 2010, 06:15:46 AM »

Quote
I support Legacy and all other format's success, but the fact is that not everyone is able to play in all those formats! There are many things I wish I could afford in life but cannot; welcome to life!


The thing is, from a business perspective -WotC's perspective- it makes no sense to shut people out from participating in the game in the way they want to because the cards are too expensive for them to afford.  From a business perspective, it makes no sense at all to limit yourself and your revenues by purposely failing to utilize your own intellectual property.  From a business perspective, it makes no sense not to produce a product for which there is a great amount of demand- especially if it is within your power to produce such a product. 

Peace.

-Troy
This is so true, and for all the Players and Collector's:

A game needs to grow,

Otherwise a company will stop making the game, if this happens (and I hope not) all collections devalue in 2 to 3 years to almost nothing; this because people will stop playing and the demand will decrease over a very short time. MTG is big because of the continuous refreshment WotC is providing in the form of new sets and other products. If reprinting of Power and other high value cards have influence on the growth of the MTG Player base in a positive way, the decrease in value for Unlimited and/or Beta cards will be negligible, If the demand of the cards is growing together with the growth of the player base, cards will hold their value and we can enjoy this game for many more years to come.

Greetz Arjan
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« Reply #38 on: March 03, 2010, 06:28:37 AM »

You don't have to reprint cards to reuse your intellectual property. A new set could be made in the world of dominaria, potentially, with subpar artifact accellerants. Old flavortexts and game mechanics (banding?) can be used for the creation of new cards without impacting older cards that give magic the credibility of a serious CCG (as opposed to yugioh/pokemon).

I think WotC might be jealous of poker and wants to push magic in that direction which is obviously a very bad idea. It could be due to the increasing number of poker allstars that have migrated from magic. Poker has huge prize payouts, and a pack of cards costs $1,-. The problem is print runs. Sealed is designed in such a way that you can open a pack of magic and play competitively, but eternal magic just doesn't work that way. After a while, 'sealed deck' cards become eternal cards. The collectability  is a large part of eternal magic and removing that part is like ripping out the soul and appeal of the format itself. I think not reprinting the cards is a sign of respect to the game and integrity to the customers.


Also, can someone explain to me what is so bad about ravnica duals? Often times you can just fetch at EOT without receiving the damage. If players don't want to shell out money for real duallands, there's a great alternative with ravnica duals. Its not like there is no fetchable dualland alternative available to the chump that refuses to pay for revised duals.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2010, 06:39:51 AM by BruiZar » Logged
FlyFlySideOfFry
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« Reply #39 on: March 03, 2010, 03:54:41 PM »

You don't have to reprint cards to reuse your intellectual property. A new set could be made in the world of dominaria, potentially, with subpar artifact accellerants. Old flavortexts and game mechanics (banding?) can be used for the creation of new cards without impacting older cards that give magic the credibility of a serious CCG (as opposed to yugioh/pokemon).

I think WotC might be jealous of poker and wants to push magic in that direction which is obviously a very bad idea. It could be due to the increasing number of poker allstars that have migrated from magic. Poker has huge prize payouts, and a pack of cards costs $1,-. The problem is print runs. Sealed is designed in such a way that you can open a pack of magic and play competitively, but eternal magic just doesn't work that way. After a while, 'sealed deck' cards become eternal cards. The collectability  is a large part of eternal magic and removing that part is like ripping out the soul and appeal of the format itself. I think not reprinting the cards is a sign of respect to the game and integrity to the customers.


Also, can someone explain to me what is so bad about ravnica duals? Often times you can just fetch at EOT without receiving the damage. If players don't want to shell out money for real duallands, there's a great alternative with ravnica duals. Its not like there is no fetchable dualland alternative available to the chump that refuses to pay for revised duals.

The problem is that if you just make new acceleration it isn't just a direct substitute if you're lacking on money. They will either double the copies for decks (think Mox Sapphire+Mox Island necessary for every blue deck from now on) or they'll just suck (think Ancestral Vision). Not to mention printing a card anywhere near the powerlevel of something like Mana Drain or Bazaar would break every format it is legal in. Hell even Vintage with over 10,000 legal cards can barely contain those two pillars at the moment.

As for your comment on the P3K reprints it is nowhere near the stupidest thing they could do. Hyperbole aside they never said anything at all about not reprinting cards from the set. They don't owe owners of P3K anything and as a matter of fact them making Portal legal in the first place made more than enough people some extra cash. I'm almost amazed that they haven't already reprinted it.

I do agree with you on dual lands though. Revised duals aren't that expensive and Ravnica duals aren't that bad. I can't believe people are complaining about dual lands.

As for everyone complaining about collectability, if tomorrow morning Vintage is officially disowned as a format across the world by WotC and the DCI then lets see how well your Moxen hold their value. The same thing is applicable, but worse, if people just stop playing Vintage. You want your cards to be "collectable"? Watch your Alpha Black Lotus drop from $1500 powerhouse to $50 has-been when Vintage dies.
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« Reply #40 on: March 03, 2010, 05:56:25 PM »

I do agree with you on dual lands though. Revised duals aren't that expensive and Ravnica duals aren't that bad. I can't believe people are complaining about dual lands.

Well....If you're using ravnica lands in the eternal formats you've just chosen to play an inferior card, and thus making your chance of winning less.

Honestly, you want to play with the best cards for the purpose, you don't go into a firefight with a half-empty lighter.
Even if the 2 life won't matter 99% of the time, it certainly will suck to loose that 1% because you're playing a suboptimal card.

Vintage and legacy needs reprints in order to exist, well atleast at some point. They also need to get rid of alot of misconceptions (With every newbie out there thinking that all games in both formats are over by turn 2.) but that is really relevant for this discussion.
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« Reply #41 on: March 03, 2010, 08:07:00 PM »

I do agree with you on dual lands though. Revised duals aren't that expensive and Ravnica duals aren't that bad. I can't believe people are complaining about dual lands.

Well....If you're using ravnica lands in the eternal formats you've just chosen to play an inferior card, and thus making your chance of winning less.

Honestly, you want to play with the best cards for the purpose, you don't go into a firefight with a half-empty lighter.
Even if the 2 life won't matter 99% of the time, it certainly will suck to loose that 1% because you're playing a suboptimal card.

Vintage and legacy needs reprints in order to exist, well atleast at some point. They also need to get rid of alot of misconceptions (With every newbie out there thinking that all games in both formats are over by turn 2.) but that is really relevant for this discussion.

My point is that the barrier of entry in Vintage isn't the dual lands, it is the big stuff. The difference between a Revised Underground Sea and a Watery Grave is like $45 and making a difference 1 in 100 games. I think a new player can live with Watery Graves and $200 in their pocket while testing out Vintage to see if they like it. On the other hand the difference between Bazaar and the substitute that doesn't exist is over $200 each and if you want to play probably the cheapest deck in Vintage to optimally play sanctioned (Ichorid) you need a playset just to test the format out. Hell even hate decks are suboptimal without Lotus and that alone costs basically as much as all of Ichorid.

I think dual lands should be visited only if the reprinting of the big stuff creates a big enough influx to Vintage to justify doing so. Legacy seems to be thriving just fine sanctioned with lots of slightly expensive small parts, so logically if price is a factor in Vintage it must be related to the vastly expensive big stuff. I agree that assuming Vintage gets revitalized and Legacy keeps the trend going we will need reprinted dual lands. However, that is so far into the future and requires so many things to fall into place that I don't see a point in discussing it at this time.
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« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2010, 02:49:09 AM »

Now, I only look at Legacy as a competitor to Vintage

This is exactly the wrong way to look at it.  Magic Begets more Magic.  Vintage has "natural" appeal, and more players with more legacy staples (many of which are also vintage staples) only makes it easier for new players to try out, and fall in love with vintage. 
Okay, yes I phrased that incorrectly.  There is a natural progression of Block -> Standard -> Extended -> Legacy -> Vintage.  However, at the same time we've seen Vintage players leave the format so that they can continue to play with 4x Brainstorm, and again more recently due to the two GPs and SCG's $5K opens.  In the short term, the increased returns to playing Legacy hurt Vintage, because Legacy is a substitute for Vintage.  While normally we would expect an increase in Legacy players to lead to an increase in Vintage players over time, that may not be the case if no one is left playing Vintage to draw them in.

Playing 1 Brainstorm, 1 Ponder, 1 TFK, and 1 ANCESTRAL RECALL, beats playing 4 brainstorms any day of the week.  I also seriously doubt anyone is quitting vintage because of the 1 GP and 1 SCG Legacy Tournament in their region PER YEAR.  Vintage TO's usually do a great job of scheduling their events around other high-level events and will continue to do so. There is no reason why the formats cannot or will not coexist, In fact it is only natural for them to.  Many of the best decks in legacy have direct counterparts in vintage, and many of the skills necessary for playing those decks translate well into vintage.   If anything I expect growth in vintage as new legacy players look for ways to utilize their new legacy cards.
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« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2010, 08:50:53 AM »

As for everyone complaining about collectability, if tomorrow morning Vintage is officially disowned as a format across the world by WotC and the DCI then lets see how well your Moxen hold their value. The same thing is applicable, but worse, if people just stop playing Vintage. You want your cards to be "collectable"? Watch your Alpha Black Lotus drop from $1500 powerhouse to $50 has-been when Vintage dies.
Right, because Juzam Djinn is worthless now that it's not played anymore?  Get real.  The only difference between WotC/DCI disowning Vintage and what we have now is the loss of the Vintage World Championships, and that care of the Restricted List would pass to someone else.

I do agree with you on dual lands though. Revised duals aren't that expensive and Ravnica duals aren't that bad. I can't believe people are complaining about dual lands.

Well....If you're using ravnica lands in the eternal formats you've just chosen to play an inferior card, and thus making your chance of winning less.

Honestly, you want to play with the best cards for the purpose, you don't go into a firefight with a half-empty lighter.
Even if the 2 life won't matter 99% of the time, it certainly will suck to loose that 1% because you're playing a suboptimal card.
Then perhaps you will value a real dual higher, and elect to purchase one...?

Quote
Vintage and legacy needs reprints in order to exist, well atleast at some point. They also need to get rid of alot of misconceptions (With every newbie out there thinking that all games in both formats are over by turn 2.) but that is really relevant for this discussion.
Alternatives to reprints are relevant to the discussion of reprints.

My point is that the barrier of entry in Vintage isn't the dual lands, it is the big stuff. The difference between a Revised Underground Sea and a Watery Grave is like $45 and making a difference 1 in 100 games. I think a new player can live with Watery Graves and $200 in their pocket while testing out Vintage to see if they like it. On the other hand the difference between Bazaar and the substitute that doesn't exist is over $200 each and if you want to play probably the cheapest deck in Vintage to optimally play sanctioned (Ichorid) you need a playset just to test the format out. Hell even hate decks are suboptimal without Lotus and that alone costs basically as much as all of Ichorid.

I think dual lands should be visited only if the reprinting of the big stuff creates a big enough influx to Vintage to justify doing so. Legacy seems to be thriving just fine sanctioned with lots of slightly expensive small parts, so logically if price is a factor in Vintage it must be related to the vastly expensive big stuff. I agree that assuming Vintage gets revitalized and Legacy keeps the trend going we will need reprinted dual lands. However, that is so far into the future and requires so many things to fall into place that I don't see a point in discussing it at this time.
The cost of cards is not a one-time fee that then disappears.  There's little to no loss in buying Bazaars, trying the format, and then selling them if you don't like it.  Not to mention substitutes like: goldfishing/testing on MWS, entering in a proxy tournament, borrowing cards, etc.

Playing 1 Brainstorm, 1 Ponder, 1 TFK, and 1 ANCESTRAL RECALL, beats playing 4 brainstorms any day of the week.  I also seriously doubt anyone is quitting vintage because of the 1 GP and 1 SCG Legacy Tournament in their region PER YEAR.  Vintage TO's usually do a great job of scheduling their events around other high-level events and will continue to do so. There is no reason why the formats cannot or will not coexist, In fact it is only natural for them to.  Many of the best decks in legacy have direct counterparts in vintage, and many of the skills necessary for playing those decks translate well into vintage.   If anything I expect growth in vintage as new legacy players look for ways to utilize their new legacy cards.
I'm not going to respond the first part of this quote because of site rules around Restricted List discussion.
The second part misses my point:
Each person has a set amount of time, and monetary budget, that they're willing to spend on Magic.  That time and money is divided up between the different formats according to each format's interest to the person.  While it is possible for a person to increase their overall budget for Magic when a format becomes more interesting, to a greater degree the person will substitute the more attractive format for less attractive ones.  Since support for Legacy has increased, Legacy is a more attractive format than it was previously.  Players who play Legacy and another format will play that other format less than they did previously.

And that's only what happens within each person, across players we see the same thing, especially with respect to card ownership:
Person A plays Vintage, has no interest in Legacy, and values dual lands (which they own) at 50$ apiece.
Person B plays Extended, wants to get in to Legacy, and values dual lands at 45$ apiece.
Introduce greater support for Legacy, and in the next period:
Person A plays Vintage, still has no interest in Legacy, and values dual lands at 50$ apiece.
Person B plays Extended, and Legacy, and values dual lands at 55$ apiece.
During the second period Person A will sell their duals to Person B.
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« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2010, 09:53:21 AM »



....While it is possible for a person to increase their overall budget for Magic when a format becomes more interesting, to a greater degree the person will substitute the more attractive format for less attractive ones.  Since support for Legacy has increased, Legacy is a more attractive format than it was previously.  Players who play Legacy and another format will play that other format less than they did previously....

Currently me and my T1 friends fall into the above described category. We currently regards that 1.5 is currently more attractive to us due to more tournaments and more opponents that we can meet and play together with, also due to the diversity of type of decks available in 1.5. Until a yet defined time, our T1 cards will stay in the protective binders.
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« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2010, 02:08:59 PM »

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That time and money is divided up between the different formats according to each format's interest to the person.

By that measure, every format is "Killing" every other format.

Legacy is no more killing Vintage than Masques Block constructed is Killing 2HG Sealed.

Not only is your assertion silly,  it isn't true, interest in magic isn't a zero sum game.  Most players don't have a specific set magic budget (of time or money), they go to events that interest them, or events that they can get rides to, or events that their friends are going to, or events that let them play a deck they like, they spend what they can afford or what they think is reasonable, or what they think they need to compete.  Magic isn't competing with just magic, it is competing with everything that that person does.  Playing more of one format doesn't  necessarily mean playing less of another.

If vintage is failing in your area, it is simply a failure of YOUR OWN COMMUNITY to maintain and grow itself.
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« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2010, 02:37:09 PM »

I think it's interesting that they chose Steve and a Starcity rep.  Starcity representing dealers' stake is a given since they're the party that got the reserve list in place to begin with. (Will we kill your business by making the effective price of Black Lotus the MSRP of a FtV release?)  But why Steve over a representative from Legacy? 

It has to be because:
A) They've decided to reprint legacy's most pricey cards already (which I find extremely likely...) AND/OR
B) They wanted someone to advocate for the reprinting of cards from a "Support our format!" perspective since they know they're screwing collectors.
--The price of a beta dual is driven by collectibility, but the price of a revised dual is driven by demand.  I strongly suspect that this applies to Unlimited power, too.
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« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2010, 02:45:54 PM »

Who from Legacy?  Doug Linn is the only other regular SCG legacy writer. 

I honestly think that they were surprised by my perspective.  I think they felt that reprinting Phyrexian Negator would feel like a sea change, and they wanted to know how this community would feel about it.   

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« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2010, 02:54:26 PM »

Quote
That time and money is divided up between the different formats according to each format's interest to the person.
By that measure, every format is "Killing" every other format.
This isn't a matter of absolutes.  The formats are substitutes for one another.  I admit that they also act as complements to one another, but they do so to a much lesser extent.

Quote
Legacy is no more killing Vintage than Masques Block constructed is Killing 2HG Sealed.
"Killing" is hyperbolic, and not what I'm saying.  Legacy is being substituted for other formats more now, as a result of the additional support it has received, in comparison to the past.

Quote
Not only is your assertion silly,  it isn't true, interest in magic isn't a zero sum game.
I didn't say that the formats are involved in a zero-sum game.  I said:
While it is possible for a person to increase their overall budget for Magic when a format becomes more interesting, to a greater degree the person will substitute the more attractive format for less attractive ones.

Quote
  Most players [snip] go to events that interest them, or events that they can get rides to, or events that their friends are going to, or events that let them play a deck they like, they spend what they can afford or what they think is reasonable, or what they think they need to compete.
This is just an episodic way of saying what I said, that they budget time and money.  People evaluate how attractive the good (playing a format for some amount of time/ or buying cards for use in playing a format) is, and determine how much time and money they want to pay for that good.

Quote
  Magic isn't competing with just magic, it is competing with everything that that person does.  Playing more of one format doesn't  necessarily mean playing less of another.
People didn't stop eating or working or sleeping upon announcement of the SCG Legacy Open series, they just didn't test for Extended as much, or played less EDH, or played less Vintage.

Quote
If vintage is failing in your area, it is simply a failure of YOUR OWN COMMUNITY to maintain and grow itself.
There are factors that the community can control, and then there are factors that are beyond the community's control.  A combination of both would be to blame in areas where Vintage is struggling.
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Vintage is a lovely format, it's too bad so few people can play because the supply of power is so small.

Chess really changed when they decided to stop making Queens and Bishops.  I'm just glad I got my copies before the prices went crazy.
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« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2010, 03:06:15 PM »

Who from Legacy?
I'm surprised that they went with a "loud voice" over a tournament organizer.  The best argument in your favor is that you've been sufficiently loud in the past to get Time Vault errata-ed and Shahrazad *almost* unbanned.  Like I said, the fact that they chose you makes me think they wanted to be talked into reprinting cards banned in Legacy and/or other policy decisions that are internally unpopular.

Quote
I think they felt that reprinting Phyrexian Negator would feel like a sea change, and they wanted to know how this community would feel about it.
It is a sea change and a wise test case.  It's an iconic but irrelevant card with minimal value on the secondary market.  Now, how loud will dealers/collectors scream vs how much product is purchased?  Magic is at a point where any dealers leaving the secondary market will just be replaced by dealers who tolerate the change or by eBay.  I wish they'd chosen something bigger like Phyrexian Dreadnought...but it's a good start.
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« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2010, 03:10:21 PM »

Who from Legacy?
I'm surprised that they went with a "loud voice" over a tournament organizer.  The best argument in your favor is that you've been sufficiently loud in the past to get Time Vault errata-ed and Shahrazad *almost* unbanned.  Like I said, the fact that they chose you makes me think they wanted to be talked into reprinting cards banned in Legacy and/or other policy decisions that are internally unpopular.

That's the best argument in favor of me?  It couldn't possibly be some other reason?  

Also, you never answered my question.  Suppose they wanted someone from the Legacy community.  Who?  You say a TO.  Would a TO have a the perspective of a player?

Quote


Quote
I think they felt that reprinting Phyrexian Negator would feel like a sea change, and they wanted to know how this community would feel about it.
It is a sea change and a wise test case.  It's an iconic but irrelevant card with minimal value on the secondary market.  Now, how loud will dealers/collectors scream vs how much product is purchased?  Magic is at a point where any dealers leaving the secondary market will just be replaced by dealers who tolerate the change or by eBay.  I wish they'd chosen something bigger like Phyrexian Dreadnought...but it's a good start.

Well they have.  Dreadnaught is a judge foil.  
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« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2010, 03:33:50 PM »

Who from Legacy?
I'm surprised that they went with a "loud voice" over a tournament organizer.  The best argument in your favor is that you've been sufficiently loud in the past to get Time Vault errata-ed and Shahrazad *almost* unbanned.  Like I said, the fact that they chose you makes me think they wanted to be talked into reprinting cards banned in Legacy and/or other policy decisions that are internally unpopular.

That's the best argument in favor of me?  It couldn't possibly be some other reason?  
Can I not stroke (deflate) your ego by talking about other people who are (better) candidates if they haven't already somehow made up their minds on Legacy-oriented reprints?

Quote
You say a TO.  Would a TO have a the perspective of a player?
A TO can talk about changes in attendance as the *local* availability of staples has changed.  Did attendance climb when they started stocking dual lands?  Also, most TOs are also players.

Quote
Quote
Quote
I think they felt that reprinting Phyrexian Negator would feel like a sea change, and they wanted to know how this community would feel about it.
It is a sea change and a wise test case.  It's an iconic but irrelevant card with minimal value on the secondary market.  Now, how loud will dealers/collectors scream vs how much product is purchased?  Magic is at a point where any dealers leaving the secondary market will just be replaced by dealers who tolerate the change or by eBay.  I wish they'd chosen something bigger like Phyrexian Dreadnought...but it's a good start.

Well they have.  Dreadnaught is a judge foil.  
Right, but they've been using that loophole for some time.  They aren't putting tens of thousands of additional copies of a played and valuable card into the magic ecosystem with a judge foil.  The reaction to something like Negator is a good test of dealer/collector outrage, but not of what will actually happen to a valuable card's demand-driven price. Compare prices for Dreadnought and LED to Shallow Grave, all three are best-in-class "unreprinted" rares from Mirage, but Shallow Grave sees little play at the moment.  Dreadnought and LED are ~$30, Shallow Grave is $2.  That's why I chose that specific example.
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« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2010, 03:56:10 PM »

it disgusts me to see that dreadnought became a DCI foil. The new layout is amazingly out of place with the original art. This is one of the reasons why I don't want duals nor power reprinted.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-1X-DCI-JUDGE-FOIL-PHYREXIAN-DREADNOUGHT-NM_W0QQitemZ260563074728QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3caac4fea8#ht_500wt_1085

it seems like eternal formats are already getting whored out in favor of limited noobs. If this is how its 15 year customers are fucked over, I see no future for this game. Not because my cards will devalue, but because they should keep their damn hands of the ecosystem instead of trying to regulate it. This is a matter of free market vs communism.

I will stop reading your articles, premium or free, because I don't like where you stand on this matter. By whoring out the eternal community you are definitely not the right representative, regardless of the fact that you may have spent years building that reputation.

I guess its only a matter of time before this becomes reality. They should be done giving these out by 2011 which means they can start FTV:Power in 2012.

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« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2010, 04:20:58 PM »

I'd look at the ONS Foil fetches to get an idea of how promotional cards influence other cards already on the market. Before the Judge Gifts, they were a lot higher. Of course there is non-foil versions of these ones, and they didn't drop. It's difficult to predict what happens, but with limited prints such as P9, it will drop, not too low, but still. Or maybe they won't print any P9 again but some cards like Duals, which I can definitly see in a sane T2 environment.
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« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2010, 04:45:42 PM »

@ BruiZar

Wow, overreaction much? It is possible to disagree with someone in a civil manner. I regularly hold discourse with people over matters of tens of millions of dollars at work, and though we can be on opposite sides of the debate, we still eat lunch together and pass the office joke around. A blanket refusal to read Steve's articles seems rather extreme just because you disagree on a point of ecomics.

And if the new foils are ugly, doesn;t that simply help the cause of rendering them the Teir 3 of power and keeping unlimited and AB power valuable and desirable? If you're against reprints, arenlt ugly ones better for your cause than beautiful ones?

I can't say I understand your position at all. Can you elabourate?
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« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2010, 04:48:51 PM »

Who from Legacy?
I'm surprised that they went with a "loud voice" over a tournament organizer.  The best argument in your favor is that you've been sufficiently loud in the past to get Time Vault errata-ed and Shahrazad *almost* unbanned.  Like I said, the fact that they chose you makes me think they wanted to be talked into reprinting cards banned in Legacy and/or other policy decisions that are internally unpopular.

That's the best argument in favor of me?  It couldn't possibly be some other reason?  Such as they think that I have expertise in both formats, have been involved in the community of both for years, and could give them insight into the community perspective as well as anyone else?  
Can I not stroke (deflate) your ego by talking about other people who are (better) candidates if they haven't already somehow made up their minds on Legacy-oriented reprints?

I can tell you for a fact that they haven't.  I'm not allowed to directly quote them per NDA, but they were extremely candid, and clearly being forthright about what they wanted to do.  They were very clear that they have not even considered the possibility of doing real Legacy reprints.   That really wasn't even on their mind.  

And, as I said before, they were taken aback by my position on the Reserved List, which I barely had time to formulate, since I had no idea what this meeting was about until I landed in Seattle.   Quite honestly, I think they expected me to be the one voice in the room opposed to reprints of cards in the Reserved List.   

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« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2010, 05:01:34 PM »

it disgusts me to see that dreadnought became a DCI foil. The new layout is amazingly out of place with the original art. This is one of the reasons why I don't want duals nor power reprinted.

http://cgi.ebay.com/MTG-1X-DCI-JUDGE-FOIL-PHYREXIAN-DREADNOUGHT-NM_W0QQitemZ260563074728QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item3caac4fea8#ht_500wt_1085

it seems like eternal formats are already getting whored out in favor of limited noobs. If this is how its 15 year customers are fucked over, I see no future for this game. Not because my cards will devalue, but because they should keep their damn hands of the ecosystem instead of trying to regulate it. This is a matter of free market vs communism.

I will stop reading your articles, premium or free, because I don't like where you stand on this matter. By whoring out the eternal community you are definitely not the right representative, regardless of the fact that you may have spent years building that reputation.



This is a very, very simple issue: What is best for Vintage or Legacy as a format?     There is only one obvious answer.    If you care about Vintage or Legacy as a FORMAT, then obviously reprints are a must.  

The situation is far more dire in Vintage than Legacy.    There are only 23,500 copies of power ever printed.

Consider this: Magic is growing quite rapidly.    Zendikar was the  greatest selling set ever.  There are more people playing Magic at all levels than ever before.   Even cards printed 2-3 years ago are very undersupplied to meet demand.   See Goyf.  

If we want Eternal Formats to grow, and I hope we do, reprints are going to be inevitable.   Unless you like having Eternal formats be elitist (which I certainly oppose, except on age discrimination grounds (i'm not a fan of playing against 12 year olds), then reprints are the only solution.

Face the facts: the people who made Magic had no idea it would ever be the popular.  It's not only growing beyond Richard Garfield's wildest imagination, but beyond what people expected even 5 years ago.  

Legacy faces a critical problem:  Dual lands are the fundamental building block of the format.    They are actually more important than basic lands.   You can't build anything by mono-colored decks without dual lands.    Dual land + Fetchland is the most important interaction in that format.    

It would be like if basic Forest cost $50.   That's what's going on in legacy at the moment.  It's a huge problem.  

But the problem in Vintage has been much worse; we've just come to accept it as inevitable.   To play Vintage in the long-run you need power.    Power costs a ridiculous amount, and those prices are only going to get worse.    Again, what would it be like if basic Island cost $300.  That's the magnitude of the problem.  

If you care about Eternal formats, then the Reserved list is a fundamental impediment to their growth and vitality.  

I'm sorry you disagree.  
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« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2010, 05:10:01 PM »

I don't want to create the wrong impression.   As I explained in this article, I also made it CLEAR to them that many segments of the community would be opposed, strongly so, to reprints of cards on the Reserved List.   What I attempted to do was to delineate those various community segments, and explain how those segments would feel.    This is also what I explained in the article.   So don't feel like I didn't represent your view.  I did.   I said that not everyone would agree.   
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« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2010, 05:22:35 PM »

People didn't stop eating or working or sleeping upon announcement of the SCG Legacy Open series, they just didn't test for Extended as much, or played less EDH, or played less Vintage.

Or maybe they played the same amount of extended, EDH and Vintage, and watched less TV.  Either way, why does Legacy as a format shoulder the blame for this? Every SCG legacy 5k is accompanied by a Standard 5k!  So why is legacy in particular to blame for Your communities attendance problem?  By your own admission Legacy cards often have use in vintage which should ATTRACT people to the format, After all what are they going to do with their dual lands during the 51 Weeks of the year that a Legacy 5k ISN'T in town?  Playing vintage seems like a pretty good answer.


There are factors that the community can control, and then there are factors that are beyond the community's control.  A combination of both would be to blame in areas where Vintage is struggling.

Then why are some communities Thriving? The circumstances that are beyond the communities control are the same for every community(except for things like weather I guess).  As usual im skeptical that things like B/R List changes, wizard's policy changes, or the supposed "funness" of the format as told by random internet posters has much at all or anything to do with tournament attendance.  Strong communities with people offering rides, lending cards and decks, and TO's putting in the legwork to get the word out and offering good prizes is what drives tournament attendance.
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« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2010, 05:37:43 PM »

And if the new foils are ugly, doesn;t that simply help the cause of rendering them the Teir 3 of power and keeping unlimited and AB power valuable and desirable? If you're against reprints, arenlt ugly ones better for your cause than beautiful ones?

I can't say I understand your position at all. Can you elabourate?

The problem is they can never do it right. If reprinted power is done too well, the value of real power drops. If its too ugly, they are desecrating vintage holy cards. I'm pretty sure that if they would print From the Vault: Power, they will use the vintage championship art. If I can pick up a foil set of championship power for $1000 I would probably have more than one of them. If the MSRP value is $35 and I can get them for that price, I will buy as much as I can humanly get my hands on, even if it means I need to take a loan for it, because I'll be making a fortune selling them back for more. The printing policy is beyond my control, so it will happen regardless of how I feel about the subject. What I do know for certain is that I can and will offset my losses (and probably make a profit) by hoarding FTV: Power. Sealed FTV: Power will go for crazy amounts of money upon its release, and even more years after. Even though that would be a great opportunity to make money, I simply cannot support an initiative to whore out the eternal formats by reprinting power or duals (or even FoW, which will happen).

There is no print run big enough to satisfy the market because hoarders/speculators, shops and collectors will buy them all up. If hypothetically the moment of saturation finally happens, unlimited power is nigh worthless.

As a sidenote, i'd like to point out a big difference between non eternal and eternal players. Non eternal players (Extended and down) typically don't respect cards. They rifle shuffle, bend and crease their cards while shuffling normally, and sleeve their cards aggressively. Eternal players use double sleeves, shuffle in piles  and use playmats and are often serious graders. While cutting decks, the vintage player often picks up his opponent's deck and allows the other play to put the other half on top of it, to avoid having to scratch your nails into your opponents valuable card on the bottom of his library. Eternal players value their cards as pieces of art and that is part of the reason why we are willing to pay as much money as we do. Non eternal players only see a bunch of game mechanics printed on a piece of disposable cardboard that may help them get a top 8.

I am all for promoting the format, and would like it to grow, but not at the cost of seeing every iconic card in magic drop significantly in prize, status and rarity. If anything, legalize CE. Its old, it respects the old layout and its print run was lower than ABU. Just because the legacy GP gathered +2000 people doesn't mean we need a 100k print run of power9.

I don't think I am overreacting when this affects not just the value of my collection, but my biggest hobby which I have spent more than half my life playing since 1994.
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