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Author Topic: [New Card Discussion] Lotus Cobra  (Read 12518 times)
urweak
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« on: September 16, 2009, 11:19:43 PM »



Card seems nuts. From what I can guess this might find a home in some type of Fastbond into X combo deck. Maybe some type of GAT list or with some other yet to be spoiled "Landfall" card. Anyways, whats your take on this?
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« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2009, 11:32:59 PM »

It looks interesting at first glance, but with Gush restricted, is there a home for a card like this? Quirion Dryad seems like a better drop for the same casting cost. We only have so many lands in our deck and without a reliable way to draw into them quick this doesn't appear very strong. What would we use the mana for?

I'll think about this card for a little while before i make any judgments though.
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« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2009, 11:33:11 PM »

What an interesting card. Null Rod decks have often had a problem with mana. This fellow provides not only acceleration, but also color fixing. And with a fetchland, you get two mana of any color. That seems very strong in the right deck.
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« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2009, 11:42:49 PM »

What an interesting card. Null Rod decks have often had a problem with mana. This fellow provides not only acceleration, but also color fixing. And with a fetchland, you get two mana of any color. That seems very strong in the right deck.

Very true indeed, you could easily cast two 2cc spells on second turn with him being dropped on the first.

Cobra, Null Rod and another 2cc creature on turn 2 does seem like a pretty good play. Something like Cannonist as the 2nd creature could be enough to win the game shortly thereafter.
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« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2009, 12:01:04 AM »

What is interesting to me is that you can get 3 mana from playing and cracking a fetchland in the same turn after this guy is in play; 1 from the fetch, 1for the land coming into play, and 1 when tapping it.  That's quite a lot of acceleration.  How will it being green affect it though.  Is this destined for a G/X aggro deck?

j
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« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2009, 12:14:36 AM »

What is interesting to me is that you can get 3 mana from playing and cracking a fetchland in the same turn after this guy is in play; 1 from the fetch, 1for the land coming into play, and 1 when tapping it.  That's quite a lot of acceleration.  How will it being green affect it though.  Is this destined for a G/X aggro deck?

j

If you are trying to play a lot of fetches to fully abuse this guy why not play Ob Nixilis, The Fallen and make a sort of B/g Aggro-Sui deck? With LftL? I dunno. It could be solid in that sort of shell and perhaps that deck could even effectively run Null Rod and not lose anything. Hmmmmm. . .

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« Reply #6 on: September 17, 2009, 12:17:28 AM »

Seems really good to me in some G/x aggro type of thing, doing 2 things:
1. Accelerating out Null Rod
2. Making the effect of Wasteland infinitely more asymmetrical, making me think Loam is a good idea.


or
3. Being stupid with Gush...or not
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vassago
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« Reply #7 on: September 17, 2009, 12:33:05 AM »

I like the following play: EOT crack fetch, float blue, ancestral, with banana drain back up. Off of two lands of course.  I will admit this play could easily be classified with "living the dream," but the extra mana is nothing to scoff at.  I like this guy, but I have no clue whether or not he is going to be good.  I am thinking that hypothetically this guy makes 15 color aggro at least suboptimal if not better.  The way I am thinking about this is the blue cards get cast off playing lands, duder's ability, and that way you dont have to make your mana base god awful.  Does this seem pretty good to you guys?
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 12:37:44 AM by vassago » Logged

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ilpeggiore
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« Reply #8 on: September 17, 2009, 01:19:40 AM »

ok, land esg - cobra, second turn fetch gaddock-rod- reb/stp/kird/whatever is good.

but land-esg gaddock, second turn land-rod is also quite good.

and cobra is decent vs prison but is a 2/1 vanilla vs controll and combo.

a way to abuse that mana is needed 'cause GW deck aren't build to.

imho cc2.....  bad. 1 constitution creature ..... bad. green.... bad.
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Guli
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« Reply #9 on: September 17, 2009, 03:02:25 AM »

Quote
a way to abuse that mana is needed 'cause GW deck aren't build to.
They are designed that way because there is no decent way to accelerate mana.

If this cobra can give the acceleration then GW could try out higher casting cost spells that would otherwise be too expensive. Or use the mana to play out your hand faster which is nice as well but I would love Dark confidant though in that situation, would make me feel more confortable.

I would love to try out stuff that would otherwise be 'too high' casting cost.

What is also extremely interesting wit this accelerator is Eladamri's Call. I experimented with Aether Vial a lot. And one of my latest designs was Vial/Eladamri's Call with all sorts of tricks with sensei top and survival. With extra mana the Eladamri's Call/Vial combo becomes extremely powerful (it was already strong). I think i might work on that list in the light of these new cards.

THough i think Null Rod should be the main route with this card.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 03:18:08 AM by Guli » Logged

Guli
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« Reply #10 on: September 17, 2009, 04:56:22 AM »

Something might be possible with fastbond as well.

the principle is to retrigger the cobra's ability. It doesn't have to be trade routs that abuses it. Maybe there is a more obvious, cheaper and simple way to activate the landfall. So it comes down to Cobra/Fastbond to trigger multiple times. Crucible might be an option as well. The difference with Orb/Cruco/Fast is that Cobra is not affected by Null Rod. I don't know if this is a relevant fact. But it does mean Null Rod can be used. It could be something like Salvager/Black lotus+kill but then with Cobra/Fastbond +kill. However the kill must be a win condition on itself. This is because the black lotus in salvager is a card you use anyway so it is not really a combo piece. I guess the same can be said about fastbond in some respect. The salvager/Lotus is enough to generate infinite mana but salvager is 4 cc while the cobra is 2cc.
These were some notes on the ups and down in reference to salvager vs cobra.

Like the initial post stated the Question: Can Cobra/Fastbond become something?

« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 05:18:39 AM by Guli » Logged

BruiZar
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« Reply #11 on: September 17, 2009, 05:22:04 AM »

That legendary land that taps for U and bounces itself...


« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 05:51:29 AM by BruiZar » Logged
Guli
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« Reply #12 on: September 17, 2009, 05:51:42 AM »

That legendary land that taps for U and bounces itself...
I was just looking through the database, didn't get to that legendary yet but did find things like Simic Growth Chamber and Selesnya Sanctuary. With fastbond/Cobra those lands will give you the ability to use your life as lotus petals.

I will keep searching

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That legendary land that taps for U and bounces itself...



Yes this looks like a good place to start.

So once the combo is there with cobra/bond you can simply play Oboro, get a mana of your choice, tap it to bounce and repeat this as many times your life total permits. The issue here is you will need another card to finish. Maybe a stasis deck can be tried to go for lockdown/control instead of combo.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 06:02:11 AM by Guli » Logged

bb-g
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« Reply #13 on: September 17, 2009, 06:23:12 AM »

Fastbond, Meloku, Lotus Cobra and one of those new citp gain one life lands generaties infinite flying tokens.
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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2009, 06:29:13 AM »

What is interesting to me is that you can get 3 mana from playing and cracking a fetchland in the same turn after this guy is in play; 1 from the fetch, 1for the land coming into play, and 1 when tapping it.  That's quite a lot of acceleration.  How will it being green affect it though.  Is this destined for a G/X aggro deck?
If you are trying to play a lot of fetches to fully abuse this guy why not play Ob Nixilis, The Fallen and make a sort of B/g Aggro-Sui deck? With LftL? I dunno. It could be solid in that sort of shell and perhaps that deck could even effectively run Null Rod and not lose anything. Hmmmmm. . .


Well, if you're going to run LftL in a B/G deck with this guy, might as well run Bloodghast as well.  There's some synergy there.
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BruiZar
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2009, 07:38:49 AM »

There are so many useful snakes nowadays, I wonder if some build could be viable

Ophidian, Coiling Oracle, Lorescale Coatl, Mold Adder, Mystic Snake, Ohran Viper, Sakura Tribe Elder, Seshiro, the Anointed, Shisato, Whispering Hunter, Winged Coatl.
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Guli
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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2009, 08:29:02 AM »

4x Crop Rotation (to find Oboro)
Maybe even Summoner's Pact? (to find Lotus Cobra)

12x Elvish Spirith Guide, petal, lotus, moxes, crypt (to get in cobra before land drop)

4x Lotus Cobra (don't forget you can always have 2 of these in play which makes things more crazy)
?x Oboro
1x Fastbond

2x Demonic Tutor, Vampiric tutor (to find anything)
4x Enlightened Tutor (to find fastbond)

Turn 1
mox/ESG > Snake
drop land > add mana to pool
tap land play crop rotation > add mana to pool > Search Oboro

there is 3 mana available and you have Cobra and Oboro. This is not super duper of a position but it show that there is a lot potential and its quick/explosive.

Assuming i play more standard: land/mox > cobra PASS TURN
What gameplan can the deck follow? What are the goals? Tutoring fastbond is key, sure and crop rotation seems nice as well. But what next?

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BruiZar
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2009, 08:35:08 AM »

I think it should be less combo. Even exploration would be very strong this way.
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meadbert
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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2009, 08:39:46 AM »

I was actually thinking more along the lines of draw 7 or Ad Nauseam based Turboland for this guy.
Accelerating out Ad Nauseam or even Time Spiral gets much easier.
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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2009, 08:57:33 AM »

I am just curious but how many decks can deal with infinite life these days? This is by no means a proposal for a serious deck, but Lifegift would be an easy infinite life synergy with Lotus Cobra and Oboro, enabling you to ignore almost all winconditions in the meta.

PS: If you could play infinite lands each turn. Sorry I totally forgot the 1 land rule.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 09:33:12 AM by coldcrow » Logged
BruiZar
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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2009, 09:27:25 AM »

Everybody is always mocking the life gain path but the reality is that brainfreeze/stroke/mill decks are non existant.
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mmcgeach
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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2009, 09:48:02 AM »

Everybody is always mocking the life gain path but the reality is that brainfreeze/stroke/mill decks are non existant.

Helm/Leyline combo gets used in people's sideboards.  But as far as i know its not a main-deck wincondition.
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ReAnimator
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« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2009, 09:55:42 AM »

Lotus Cobra turns Crop Rotation into a Dark Ritual if you search up a fetch land. That seems really really good. You can get 7+ mana on turn 2 off a first turn Cobra just with a crop rotation and your lands. 
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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2009, 10:00:42 AM »

I like the following play: EOT crack fetch, float blue, ancestral, with banana drain back up. Off of two lands of course.  I will admit this play could easily be classified with "living the dream," but the extra mana is nothing to scoff at.  I like this guy, but I have no clue whether or not he is going to be good.  I am thinking that hypothetically this guy makes 15 color aggro at least suboptimal if not better.  The way I am thinking about this is the blue cards get cast off playing lands, duder's ability, and that way you dont have to make your mana base god awful.  Does this seem pretty good to you guys?

This guy really is making me think about a 5 color beat deck with a touch of control. With a cobra out, I can hold just 1 blue fetchland in play and that alone is the threat of a mana drain.
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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2009, 10:15:58 AM »

Everybody is always mocking the life gain path but the reality is that brainfreeze/stroke/mill decks are non existant.
don't forget about painter grind stone
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 11:42:36 AM by hvndr3d y34r h3x » Logged

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voltron00x
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« Reply #25 on: September 17, 2009, 10:40:31 AM »

Sorry if I'm just incapable of feeling joy or something, but... I don't see this card making a big splash in Vintage.  Building an entire deck around a 2/1 creature that is vulnerable to Thoughtseize and Force of Will, and which doesn't actually do anything until the next turn, doesn't seem like a recipe for success.

Admittedly he could add a little juice to the G/W/x archetype, and he would be interesting in Loam-based decks (such as the Alabama black Snake or Snake Pit style decks, where you'd get a mana when you play wasteland, so you can wasteland lock and continue to develop your board).  Still... those are fringe decks.  I can't see this having a big impact outside of standard, and even there its probably overrated right now.  

Then again as an Oath player I am always very excited when people decide they want to play more creatures, so by all means, please proceed.

Sorry to be a downer.
« Last Edit: September 17, 2009, 11:41:44 AM by voltron00x » Logged

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« Reply #26 on: September 17, 2009, 10:42:02 AM »

I think what this card does is help aggro control decks dig out of a Stax lock.
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« Reply #27 on: September 17, 2009, 10:47:38 AM »

The real problem with this card is that it really doesn't do anything.  Like, ever.   You play this guy, most likely on turn 2 since aggro decks rarely live the dream of drawing one of their 3 moxes or lotus.  So on turn 3 you get X mana.  What do you do with that mana that is really threating?    One person said "Oh man, I could play  Mana Drain".  But you won't have anything to drain into.   You could play some huge fat guy, but "meh".
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« Reply #28 on: September 17, 2009, 11:16:23 AM »

The real problem with this card is that it really doesn't do anything.  Like, ever.   You play this guy, most likely on turn 2 since aggro decks rarely live the dream of drawing one of their 3 moxes or lotus.  So on turn 3 you get X mana.  What do you do with that mana that is really threating?    One person said "Oh man, I could play  Mana Drain".  But you won't have anything to drain into.   You could play some huge fat guy, but "meh".


Perhaps that's true. but I don't like to write off cards that quickly. I think the idea proposed earlier of trying to actually put this guy in a Tendrils Shell seems interesting as Crop Rotate + Fetch = +3 mana. It would be fascinating to play out a Tendrils by using multiple Crop Rotations with this guy on the table. The fact that he beats for 2 is just gravy.

The other shell I could see him in is a 4-5 Color Fish deck. Perhaps one with Hide // Seek. Here's my stab at such a list:

Land (19):
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Windswept Heath
2 Marsh Flats
3 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
1 Horizon Canopy
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (10):
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Jet
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Null Rod

Artifact Creatures (4):
3 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Darksteel Colossus

Creatures (8):
4 Lotus Cobra
4 Dark Confidant

Instants (9):
4 Hide // Seek
2 Crop Rotation
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Brainstorm
1 Vampiric Tutor

Sorceries (10):
4 Thoughtseize
1 Life From The Loam
1 Demonic Tutor
1 Ponder
1 Tinker
1 Time Walk
1 Yawgmoth’s Will

Not sure if it's just complete garbage, but I figured I'd throw something out there just to get interest in the card going. I do think a Tendrils strategy could be potentially more exciting so I'll take more time to mess with that.

-Storm
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« Reply #29 on: September 17, 2009, 12:28:51 PM »

While a Tendrils style could be more exciting, is it better than what is currently available? Will it kill as efficiently, with consistency, and protection? I don't think Lotus Cobra is the nuts.
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