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Author Topic: Noble Fish: GUW variants here!  (Read 74492 times)
serracollector
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« Reply #450 on: October 16, 2011, 08:37:48 PM »

Once again ESG and Lotus Cobra both provide fast mana for an early GSZ, and both can swing with Edric to draw/Win.

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psyburat
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« Reply #451 on: October 17, 2011, 09:18:54 AM »

I'm curious, for those of you using GSZ and especially in conjunction with Dryad Arbor, what has been your tournament success?  Do you have issues with losing Dryad Arbor to Wasteland and getting locked out of a game due to the reliance on that strategy?
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« Reply #452 on: October 20, 2011, 10:31:55 AM »

Storm:

I'm really intrugued by your build, and I think it looks great. However, is the singleton Qasali worth it? If you do decide that you want a white splash, wouldn't Swords be an auto include as a one of? Probably in the place of Dismember?

Also, how good have Daze been for you? I know you're fond of them, but with Snapcaster perhaps something else should be considered like Spell Pierce?
« Last Edit: October 20, 2011, 10:35:37 AM by StanleyAugust » Logged
nineisnoone
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« Reply #453 on: October 20, 2011, 10:57:53 AM »

Green Sun's Zenith? Can you explain it's purpose? As I see it... basic play is for Dryad Arbor, and it can used with Snapcaster, but that seems kind meh. XG doesn't really do anything huge (i.e. Drain) and going beyond Arbor would require a lot of mana during the main phase. Have you tested Mana Leak? Tropical Island, GSZ->Arbor, sets you up nicely for a turn 2 Leak (a very underrated counter imo)

I was following a more traditional Noble build with Heirarch and swapping Rods for Stonys.

Think of GSZ as primarily serving as a Noble replacement in this deck that is more synergistic than Noble with the rest of the deck. This deck wants to attack with 2/1's and 2/2's and even 1/1's because Edric draws you more cards PER creature you attack with. Llanowar Elves then becomes better than Noble (since you only have a dual mana requirement overall) and Dryad Arbor is better than both when coupled with GSZ. GSZ also searches up Edric to Finish the game as well as your 1 Goyf. This basically frees up a lot of slots to let you play balls-to-the-walls control and fully utilize slots for a robust Instant package that allows Snapcaster to Shine. This deck is highly experimental, and I am certainly skeptical of just calling it good, but it is certainly a unique take on the archetype of fish. I might even consider running 3 Dryad Arbor if I could find the room but 2 seems to get the job done most of the time. If you have any more questions feel free to pm me.

-Storm

Interesting. Have you actually considered going down to 1 Arbor? I would see it mainly as being a turn 1 play for Arbor. Or are you seeing success with it as a creature with Edric?
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serracollector
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« Reply #454 on: October 20, 2011, 03:49:59 PM »

In my testing with my UG build, I was running a "tool box gsz" version using 4 GSZ, 1 Drayad, 4 Cobra, 4 Nobles, 2 Edric, 2 Trygon, 1 Selkie, 1 Goyf, then the rest was Counters, Restricted stuff, and Wipe Away.
It ran very well, and I never had mana issues. Not sure how or when, but ESG might be a good replacement for Nobles as well, but depends on if u really need your deck to be "that fast".
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #455 on: October 20, 2011, 11:26:26 PM »

In my testing with my UG build, I was running a "tool box gsz" version using 4 GSZ, 1 Drayad, 4 Cobra, 4 Nobles, 2 Edric, 2 Trygon, 1 Selkie, 1 Goyf, then the rest was Counters, Restricted stuff, and Wipe Away.
It ran very well, and I never had mana issues. Not sure how or when, but ESG might be a good replacement for Nobles as well, but depends on if u really need your deck to be "that fast".

I would probably never run ESG in a deck other than G/W because I just don't have the room to include a one-shot lotus petal when there are other better goodies to run in G/U (countermagic and draw spells for one).

I also would never run 4 Hierarch and 4 GSZ. Maybe I'd run like 4 Hierarch and 2 GSZ, but I'm beginning to see that Hierarch may be the problem here. With the option of Snapcaster now being available I just don't see why you wouldn't want to play it in Fish and then I also wouldn't see why you don't want to play Edric and go for the incremental CA beats plan. It all just sorta fits.

as to Swords to Plowshares question from StanleyAugust: I would absolutely being running STP over Dismember if I thought I'd consistently have white up to play it. The 1 tundra in this deck is really just insurance for getting my 1 pridemage or gaddock into play (I'm thinking of running 1 MD or SB Ooze as well as a tutor target vs. dredge and other randomness) in case draw them and can't use GSZ to get them into play. This deck isn't really "PLAYING" white so I don't want to rely on having white mana up with only 1 actual white source. I suppose I could consider it as an answer to Tinker, but I dunno if I like that route. Giving my opponent 11 life is not a great idea if they also have a Tendrils kill laying in wait.

-Storm
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serracollector
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« Reply #456 on: October 21, 2011, 06:15:14 AM »

Seems silly but I missed that GSZ can get Xantid Swarm early, ensuring your other fish get into play. I will be doing some testing.  Prob is it don't get draw off Edric, but still seems like it could be a 1 of over vexing shusher.
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nineisnoone
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« Reply #457 on: October 21, 2011, 08:30:42 AM »

@Storm

Why White? It seems archaic to run W since you aren't running Noble anymore and have access to other colors. You just run the one Pridemage in the main. If you put in a Volcanic Island, you get access to REB, Grudge, and Fire/Ice (which in the current meta looks really good).

I'm actually really liking the GSZ innovation, my main issue is that Darkblast and Fire/Ice can make running Dryads really vulnerable. But I guess no more than Nobles were.

--- actually, missing the U from Noble. ---
« Last Edit: October 24, 2011, 08:47:38 AM by nineisnoone » Logged

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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #458 on: November 22, 2011, 02:15:48 PM »

I think that testing has shown me that the original construct of Noble Fish being GUW with Hierarchs is actually superior to Taigo Drums with Arbors. Especially with Landstill and Shops being two huge portions of the Vintage metagame right now I'd rather not have my manabase SOOO susceptible to Wasteland. I think pusyburat is correct in this regard. Creature removal is not as ubiquitous as Wasteland in Vintage and I'd rather trade 1-for-1 with a spell than a land that I can't counter.

Here's my latest version of Noble Fish. This has been testing insanely well on Cockatrice. Maybe I'm just a huge lucksack, but I think there might be something to Selkie again in Vintage. I think it is decent against most decks unless they specifically metagame for it with good answers like Perish. Of course it is underpowered as a concept and always has been but Vintage is a battle of resources and I think Fish can win that battle. I have always thought it was especially good vs. big blue decks with key 4-ofs to name with MM (back in the day this was Thirst for Knowledge) and the metagame seems like it has once again shifted towards that. Now you can name Gush or Snapcaster Mage and really hamper your opponent's ability to generate CA. Since Snapcaster is effectively a minimum 3-drop you can get to Meddling Mage before even the first Snapcaster hits the table. I would relate Snapcaster to Thirst very closely and Noble Fish had really good game vs. Thirst decks. I can't be 100% sure that this deck will make a comeback, but I think that dedicated pilots could certainly smash face at Vintage events with it. Please try this list if you have access to local events and tell me how it goes! I have no Vintage in my area (boooo Seattle) so I only have Cockatrice testing to go on so I'd be honored and grateful if some daring pilots would take this to an event. Ok, without further ado:

Selkie-Strike 2k12

Land (17):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Forest
1 Island
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (4):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl

Enchantments (3):
3 Stony Silence

Creatures (18):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (16):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Mental Misstep
3 Steel Sabotage
2 Swords To Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (2):
1 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Trygon Predator
2 Flusterstorm
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Swords To Plowshares

I am a little up in the air on the SB. I think 7 dredge hate slots is necessary and I really like the ability of extraction to get rid of Therapy so you have 0 worry of them tacking future hate. Other ideas of an ideal hate package are welcome though.

Also, I'm not sure about the Flusterstorm vs. MB-Trap split. which is better for Noble Fish? I like both and both seem to have advantages but I can't decide which one suites THIS deck better. Flusterstorm can counter early tempo plays like brainstorm, preordain as well as early tutors, but Trap can counter the big turn, is free, and beats opposing Flusterstorms. I really like Flusterstorm and would lean more toward it, but I could be convinced otherwise. Ideally I want to run 3 of 1 or the other as I don't like the randomness of drawing 1 when I need the other because I didn't maximize numbers in the SB.

1 Selkie is for blue decks. You want 3 vs. them because you want to see it early and begin applying pressure.

1 Swords is almost exclusively for the mirror and for opposing beatdown decks as well as Aggro Shops.

Anyway, thoughts on this update?

-Storm
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #459 on: November 27, 2011, 07:14:02 PM »

So I've put my new list in the initial post of the thread. I want to keep things up to date, but I realize that initial post is getting cluttered? Anyone remember how to make hidden drop-down areas to put previous content in so players can look at it but only if they click on the the menu? That would be helpful for the initial post and I don't know how to do it. Help?

-Storm
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nogz
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« Reply #460 on: December 21, 2011, 11:50:54 AM »

Hello guys! Been a while since I played vintage again. Anyway,the meta here in my country is usually blue based drain decks. Basically jace control with snapcaster mage and mud aggro. So I'm playing this list. Feel free to comment.

Noble fish
Creatures(20):
4 noble hierarch
4 qasali pridemage
3 snapcaster mage
3 meddling mage
2 cold-eyed selkie
2 vendilion clique
2 trygon predator

Instant/Sorcery(15):
4 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
2 swords to plowshares
1 ancestral recall
1 time walk
1 surgical extraction

Planeswalker(1):
Jace, the mind sculptor

Enchantment(3):
3 stony silence

Artifact(4):
1 black lotus
1 mox sapphire
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl

Lands(17):
3 misty rainforest
2 flooded strand
3 tropical island
3 tundra
1 savannah
3 wasteland
1 strip mine
1 island

Sideboard(15):
3 pithing needle
2 surgical extraction
2 tormod's crypt
3 steel sabotage
2 trygon predator
1 cold-eyed selkie
2 kataki war's wage/energy flux
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TheWhiteDragon
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« Reply #461 on: December 21, 2011, 11:54:06 AM »

looks like a very solid list!

I'd probably drop a plow and a clique for 2 leonin relic-warders.  Other than that, solid.
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nogz
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« Reply #462 on: December 22, 2011, 12:29:19 PM »

tried before but doesn't really mesh well with the deck. yeah,relic warder is really good but it's just that it doesn't really do well with the deck. just my opinion though.
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Prkchpsndwiches
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« Reply #463 on: January 09, 2012, 10:47:29 AM »

Top 4'd at Meandeck Open with a very slight variant on Stormanimagus' deck.  Thanks Storm!

+1 Tarmogoyf
+1 Swords to Plowshares
-1 Green Sun's Zenith
-1 Steel Sabotage

SB:
-1 Swords to Plowshares
+1 Steel Sabotage

Land (18):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
3 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (7):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
3 Stony Silence

Creatures (17):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
1 Trygon Predator
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (16):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
2 Steel Sabotage
3 Mental Misstep
3 Swords to Plowshares
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk


Sideboard
4 Ravenous Trap
3 Surgical Extraction
3 Trygon Predator
3 Flusterstorm
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Steel Sabotage  

Really enjoyed the deck.  Played Noble Fish a lot when I first started out playing Vintage so it was nice to return to my roots.  I felt the Stony Silence's were weak in my meta as well as the two main deck Steel Sabotage.

I'd probably bring in the Trygon and Selkie from the side to main, shipping the steels to the side in the future.  Not sure on the other 3 slots for Stony as of yet.  Green Sun's back in and Snapcaster seem saucy.

I chose to bring in the extra Tarmogoyf because it has been very good versus all the dudes people are playing.  Same goes for the Steel Sabotage and Swords to Plowshares swap.  


-Prkchp
« Last Edit: January 09, 2012, 11:37:37 AM by Prkchpsndwiches » Logged
Stormanimagus
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« Reply #464 on: January 09, 2012, 05:43:05 PM »

Prkchp - Congrats on the finish! It's nice to see some players piloting this deck to top 8's. It really Vindicates my faith in the deck.

As to some of your comments:

1. As tempting as it might be to cut Stony Silence it is just as much a centerpiece of this deck as Null Rod was to older iterations. It is a necessary evil and really shines against the Tubro-Tezz and TV/Key decks. Since it is rarely dead elsewhere it is definitely MD-able as a 3-of. The more interesting choice regarding Silence is where do you side it out? I'd say the match-ups I might side it out against are as follows:

 *Fish (certainly yes)
 *Nouveau Espresso (Probably)
 *Landstill (certainly yes)
 *Dredge (certainly yes)
 *Delver.dec (this is a very very big maybe)

Other than those decks I'd probably leave it in.

2. I personally think that Sabotage is still MD-able and is basically your best out against shops and BSC (game 1). Sabotage makes Shops go from very tough to very winnable. I would never run less than 3 in my 75.

3. Flusterstorm, while good, should probably now be Spell Pierce. I can't believe I'm hearing myself say this, but, for Fish, the ability to counter Oaths, Jaces, and Lotuses makes Pierce better than Flusterstorm. Fish's counters need to apply more broadly because it is a deck that is put on defense more than other decks. Spell Pierce is a more encompassing defensive counter. I'd also try to find room for 1 more Selkie in the 75 as it is your best weapon against most blue decks in the format. Other than that, nice list, and nice finish!

-Storm
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Prkchpsndwiches
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« Reply #465 on: January 09, 2012, 06:20:14 PM »

Storm,

This was the field lol, so that's why it didn't feel all that useful to me.

*Fish (certainly yes)
 *Nouveau Espresso (Probably)
 *Landstill (certainly yes)
 *Dredge (certainly yes)
 *Delver.dec (this is a very very big maybe)

 I also played null rod back when it was the only option, but at that time my meta was very time vault/key centric .  There is only one turbo tezz player in my meta and he only played it one time a year ago.

I can see leaving in a single sabotage in the main.  I have 3 STP in my main, and it did pop a turn one Tinker in the Top 8.  Even if I removed them from the main they would stay in the side as my previous post stated.

Flusterstorm flat out won me 2 games.  In those same two situations Spell Pierce could have worked. I say could have because Spell Pierce can be Missteped.  In testing the week prior to the torunament, I missteped plenty of spell pierces and just dont trust it to replace flusterstorm. I could see running it in addition to flusterstorm, maybe replacing the sabotages main, as I agree they are nice to stop Oath.  Also believe it or not with all the counterspells out there, we had 4 TPS players show up.  I was glad I had the 3 flusterstorms!

Definitely agree on Selkie as well.  It won me two vital games, including Top 8. 

Thanks again for the list!  Was glad to be slinging UGW fish again!
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Stormanimagus
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« Reply #466 on: January 17, 2012, 02:24:31 AM »

Not that it is any secret any more, but I have just seen a new card spoiled in Dark Ascension that will change Noble Fish (and Vintage) forever. I give you:

Grafdigger's Cage

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=127359&d=1326776672

Now Noble Fish may not be the ideal home for this tool, but I think it will certainly benefit from some solid MD Dredge hate that also nukes Yawgmoth's Will, Tinker, Welder, and Oath. I think that bears repeating. This card, this 1CMC artifact nukes YAWGMOTH'S MO-F-ING WILL, OATH OF DRUIDS, TINKER, AND GOBLIN WELDER all in 1 fell swoop. Oh and now Snapcaster is a non-issue for non-Snapcaster decks. Did I mention some more fringe cards like Reanimate, Animate Dead, Necromancy (Bye-Bye WGD Combo) as well as Life from the Loam?

This is exactly the power level card that fish needed printed in order to be a contender. I would have liked it to have been a W or G costing enchantment rather than an artifact (so Shops can't abuse it), but I'll take it!

Here's how I'd work it into Noble Fish at present:

Noble Fish 2K12

Land (18):
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Flooded Strand
4 Tropical Island
2 Tundra
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine

Artifacts (8):
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Emerald
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Pearl
4 Grafdigger’s Cage

Enchantments (2):
2 Stony Silence

Creatures (17):
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Meddling Mage
3 Tarmogoyf
2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Instants (14):
4 Force Of Will
3 Daze
3 Steel Sabotage
3 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall

Sorceries (1):
1 Time Walk

Sideboard
4 Surgical Extraction
4 Trygon Predator
1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
1 Steel Sabotage
4 Swords To Plowshares
1 Stony Silence

And here's how I might board:

Noble Fish 2K12 SB Plan

Nouveau Espresso
-4 Grafdigger’s Cage
-3 Mental Misstep
-2 Cold-Eyed Selkie

+4 Trygon Predator
+1 Steel Sabotage
+3 Swords To Plowshares
+1 Stony Silence

Metalworker Worker MUD
Same as Espresso

Cat Stax
-4 Grafdigger’s Cage
-3 Mental Misstep
-2 Cold-Eyed Selkie
-2 Stony Silence

+4 Swords To Plowshares
+4 Trygon Predator
+1 Steel Sabotage
+2 Surgical Extraction

Delver Gush
-2 Grafdigger’s Cage
-2 Stony Silence
-3 Steel Sabotage

+4 Swords To Plowshares
+1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
+2 Surgical Extraction

Dredge
-2 Stony Silence
-3 Steel Sabotage
 
+4 Surgical Extraction
+1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Snapcaster TV/Key
-1 Tarmogoyf
-1 Meddling Mage

+1 Stony Silence
+1 Cold-Eyed Selkie

Noble Mirror
-4 Grafdigger’s Cage
-2 Stony Silence
-3 Steel Sabotage

+4 Swords To Plowshares
+1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
+4 Surgical Extraction

Landstill
-2 Stony Silence
-4 Grafdigger’s Cage
-3 Steel Sabotage

+1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
+4 Surgical Extraction
+4 Trygon Predator

Cobra-Gush Tendrils
-3 Steel Sabotage
-2 Tarmogoyf

+1 Stony Silence
+1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
+3 Surgical Extraction

Dark Times
-3 Steel Sabotage
-2 Stony Silence
-4 Grafdigger’s Cage

+4 Swords To Plowshares
+1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
+4 Surgical Extraction

Oath
-3 Steel Sabotage
-3 Tarmogoyf

+1 Stony Silence
+1 Cold-Eyed Selkie
+4 Trygon Predator

Well Comment Away! I, for one, am still in shock with regards to this printing.

-Storm

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« Reply #467 on: January 17, 2012, 04:50:51 AM »

Stony silent should increase to 4. Without tinker, control would play vault, and bomberman should increase. I'd play 4 tarmo (and maybe SFM as suggested) in a slower meta, and probably katakis/trygons in the main instead meddlings.
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« Reply #468 on: January 17, 2012, 07:40:21 AM »

Yep.  4 Cages and 4 Rods are the way to go now.  All we have to worry about it Time Vault.
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« Reply #469 on: January 17, 2012, 08:26:25 AM »

I kinda agree, but it does feel odd. So we dedicate 8 slots to these suppressive cards and let's say 22 mana sources. That gives us 30 slots to do work with using our creativity, innovation and design skills.

I also want to note that the new  {1} super needle does suffer from the same weakness. And we all know how control players adapted to heavy artifact usage in the past. See trygon, ancient grudge and there is claim too. From those 30 slots, how much of it will be dedicated to counter magic to adequately protect your hate artifcats?

Just don't forget that Null Rod/Stony Silence and Grafdigger’s Cage do not win the game, they prevent you from losing. And they also don't prevent them from countering your key bears.

And Storm, what did I tell you yesterday when we were testing your white weenie? I knew they were going to print a grave hate card. But I didn't expect it to be this versatile, for that matter.
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« Reply #470 on: January 20, 2012, 10:09:32 AM »

Here is what I came up with for Noble Fish 2012. Deck tries to power out Teeg or Thalia turn 1. And follow it up with Edric and Exalted triggers. Cage is in there too, to make your creatures stronger. (When Cage is out, you cut off roads, while your bears also do that)

The Shop plan is to bypass spheres with ESG and power out Trygon. Actually, ESG and Edric is what drives this deck speed and fuel wise. Just copy and paste it in deck editor of cockatrice and try it out.

2 Flooded Strand
2 Windswept Heath
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Island
1 Forest
1 Plains
4 Wasteland
1 Strip Mine
1 Tropical Island
1 Tundra
2 Savannah
1 Mox Pearl
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald
4 Elvish Spirit Guide
1 Black Lotus
1 Lotus Petal
4 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Edric, Spymaster of Trest
4 Trygon Predator
4 Grafdigger's Cage
4 Mental Misstep
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk
SB: 3 Samurai of the Pale Curtain
SB: 3 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Nature's Claim
SB: 3 Flusterstorm
SB: 4 Leyline of Sanctity
« Last Edit: January 20, 2012, 10:12:14 AM by Guli » Logged
xouman
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« Reply #471 on: January 20, 2012, 05:53:32 PM »

Of every fish deck, noble fish feels the less suitable to play Cage. You are losing snapcasters and GSZ, and while the mana screw plan is not synergistic with GSZ, it allows to reduce the number of maindeck Gaddocks, Edrics and trygons, as you probably won't 2 of any in starting hand and hardly the third copy. Also it feels quite soft against MUD, and don't having fow seems so-so, even with gaddock.
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« Reply #472 on: January 20, 2012, 06:59:22 PM »

Detailed breakdown of my post-Innistrad list w/ sideboarding techniques: http://goo.gl/aALAt

This list has gotten me two 4-X finishes this month at NEV events, 4-2 for a 15th place out of 66, and 4-1-1 for a 9th place (on breakers, dammit) out of 45.  It is simple and brutal as always, and I will be playing it at every upcoming event until Dark Ascension settles out price-wise.
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« Reply #473 on: January 20, 2012, 08:01:31 PM »

Detailed breakdown of my post-Innistrad list w/ sideboarding techniques: http://goo.gl/aALAt

This list has gotten me two 4-X finishes this month at NEV events, 4-2 for a 15th place out of 66, and 4-1-1 for a 9th place (on breakers, dammit) out of 45.  It is simple and brutal as always, and I will be playing it at every upcoming event until Dark Ascension settles out price-wise.

Mike, that is the most half-baked list I have ever seen. It's like you forgot that Vintage decks are 75 cards and not 60. I mean, putting aside the fact that I have always disagreed with you on MD Gitaxian probe (if you want to play all 4-ofs I'd run 4 Selkie before I'd run 4 Probe, they are a dude that draws you more forces, dazes and dudes), putting that aside, you still have COMPLETELY bungled your SB slots. like Oxidize is really better than a second claim? Purify the grave is better than surgical? Wheel Of Sun and Moon is better than the new Cage card? Needle is better than another Cage? Samurai is better than another rav trap or cage or surgical? How often you expecting to see that 1 Mental Misstep.

Honestly, it looks like you just threw this together and the sad thing is that you'll get more interest in this pile from good Vintage players because you have the opportunity to play real games with it (there is 0 Vintage scene in Seattle) and for some reason many good Vintage players look to you for "Fish" advice. Make no mistake, the deck may bear your name but it is NOT your deck. It is a deck that I created with Jeff Carpenter back in February of 2008 and brought to a major Vintage event did well with. That sparked interest and the deck has since taken on a life of its own. It is now no more your deck than mine in its current form but I think I understand the roots of the deck and you undermine it by posting lazy lists like the one I just saw.

-Storm

Noah we've covered this in the past with others, but I believe you're aware that discussing credit for decks/ideas is not accepted on TMD.  This, in combination with the manner in which you responded to Mike, will net you a full warning.

Why address Mike's points this way?  Much of what you wrote reads as an insult and that's not what we do here on TMD.  Additionally, given that his last name is Noble, you are aware that "Me Fish" is a tongue in cheek jest, no?

If you'd care to discuss Mike's card choices, please do so in a respectful manner.  Derogatory comments made against other TMD users are not tolerated, under any circumstances.

- Prospero

« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 12:45:11 PM by Prospero » Logged

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« Reply #474 on: January 20, 2012, 09:54:13 PM »

Detailed breakdown of my post-Innistrad list w/ sideboarding techniques: http://goo.gl/aALAt

This list has gotten me two 4-X finishes this month at NEV events, 4-2 for a 15th place out of 66, and 4-1-1 for a 9th place (on breakers, dammit) out of 45.  It is simple and brutal as always, and I will be playing it at every upcoming event until Dark Ascension settles out price-wise.

Mike, that is the most half-baked list I have ever seen. It's like you forgot that Vintage decks are 75 cards and not 60. I mean, putting aside the fact that I have always disagreed with you on MD Gitaxian probe (if you want to play all 4-ofs I'd run 4 Selkie before I'd run 4 Probe, they are a dude that draws you more forces, dazes and dudes), putting that aside, you still have COMPLETELY bungled your SB slots. like Oxidize is really better than a second claim? Purify the grave is better than surgical? Wheel Of Sun and Moon is better than the new Cage card? Needle is better than another Cage? Samurai is better than another rav trap or cage or surgical? How often you expecting to see that 1 Mental Misstep.

Honestly, it looks like you just threw this together and the sad thing is that you'll get more interest in this pile from good Vintage players because you have the opportunity to play real games with it (there is 0 Vintage scene in Seattle) and for some reason many good Vintage players look to you for "Fish" advice. Make no mistake, the deck may bear your name but it is NOT your deck. It is a deck that I created with Jeff Carpenter back in February of 2008 and brought to a major Vintage event did well with. That sparked interest and the deck has since taken on a life of its own. It is now no more your deck than mine in its current form but I think I understand the roots of the deck and you undermine it by posting lazy lists like the one I just saw.

-Storm


1st, I agree that this list is not tuned and seems to have some flaws - though I see some path of logic in some of the card choices.
2nd, perhaps one of you can claim royalties to "noble"fish, but I do believe "fish" (the original disruptive creature deck) came from Mark Perez back in 2002.  He's got a few years on you guys.
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« Reply #475 on: January 21, 2012, 11:46:32 AM »

I don't give a damn who gets credit. Credit discussions are strictly prohibited on TMD - Prospero

 I do like appreciation. I appreciate that there is an effort towards 'creature' based decks. But then again, the current meta is FULL of creatures. To specify, I appreciate that recognized players make the effort to use powerful cards like gaddock, GSZ, the exalted mechanism and SFMystic.

I would like to know how much of an effect the GSZ toolbox really had in the list on 8th place, http://morphling.de/top8decks.php?id=1541 (Brian Demars)

On top of that, I see SFM. I see 2 Noble Hierarch. I see 2 Mystic Remora. This sounds like a JOKE. And if it isn't, my question is, why bother to add all these cards? A 'slot' based deck design is nice and all, spreading out the effectiveness of the slots, but it must have been extremely difficult to pilot. This would require a mass amount of playtesting before taking it to a tourney. I understand there is a certain dynamism, that the deck never is 'perfect' or 'finished' and constantly changing and adapting. So it is very meta dependant. All this means that it is not a deck that you can simply promote and encourage others to play with. Wthout experience, don't even bother, you will FAIL. Or would you, Brian, say that this deck is 'user friendly'?

The advantage is that there will never be redundant cards. There can never be 2 Gaddock in your hand. Fine, but that never was an issue anyway, GWx beats can afford having a second teeg in hand. We also don't need 3 noble in play I guess. I think the list is very fun to pilot.  The fact that there are so many 1 and 2 off's makes it hard for the reader to find the cohesion, the smoothness.

I instantly noticed the BSC and said to myself, wtf is this guy thinking. Oh well, at least Brian admits in his article that the card sucks in this deck. Tinker is oké. But I wouldn't run it. Run another Mystic instead. (http://www.starcitygames.com/magic/vintage/23398_Vintage_AvantGarde_8th_At_Meandeck_Open_With_Bant_Midrange_Stoneblade.html)


Of every fish deck, noble fish feels the less suitable to play Cage. You are losing snapcasters and GSZ, and while the mana screw plan is not synergistic with GSZ, it allows to reduce the number of maindeck Gaddocks, Edrics and trygons, as you probably won't 2 of any in starting hand and hardly the third copy. Also it feels quite soft against MUD, and don't having fow seems so-so, even with gaddock.
The classical noble fish variants maybe, but not in the list I posted. There Cage is amazing with Qasali, Teeg and Thalia. As I stated, I opt for consistent builds and speed things up with ESG and acceleration. Then I try to create more threats with tempo by using Edric. I don't lose time with tutoring, countering. It is threat after threat, pure tempo, the hosing of the opponent game plan is inside the bears while they beat and draw me cards. It is good to have multiple teeg/edric/thalia in your hand with Edric in the deck. Reasons:

- People counter your threats
- People kill your threats
- People block your threats

You can simply be very aggresive with edric in your deck. You just swing and recast that killed Teeg or Thalia. With this aggro gameplan in mind, you really need the 4 Edric.

Why 4 Trygon? Because against shop, you frankly don't care about your cards other than Noble, ESG and Trygon. Once you power out a Trygon, the game becomes comfortable. Obviously Thalia and Qasali have there positive points against Shop but they are not going to win the game. Your accleration and Trygon will... (backup plan against Metamorph is Exalted)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 11:12:07 AM by Prospero » Logged
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« Reply #476 on: January 27, 2012, 11:09:21 AM »

Wheel Of Sun and Moon is better than the new Cage card? Needle is better than another Cage? Samurai is better than another rav trap or cage or surgical?

I know for a fact that 4x Grafdigger's Cage are making their way to Mike's MD as soon as they're legal.  His list doesn't have it currently since it's not out yet and thus couldn't run it at the tournaments over the last few weeks.

I understand your consternation regarding his SBing strategy and lists, but couldn't you also draw the conclusion that there may be more to SBing then jamming 4-ofs of the best cards in the SB?  Just an FYI, the fact that he plays mostly singletons in his sideboard has thrown off many players, since they're unsure of what card he'll have and are unable to play around it.  It's surprisingly effective (and funny!).

-Nick
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 11:39:44 AM by Iron_Chef » Logged

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« Reply #477 on: January 27, 2012, 11:52:39 AM »

Wheel Of Sun and Moon is better than the new Cage card? Needle is better than another Cage? Samurai is better than another rav trap or cage or surgical?

I know for a fact that 4x Grafdigger's Cage are making their way to Mike's MD as soon as they're legal.  His list doesn't have it currently since it's not out yet and thus couldn't run it at the tournaments over the last few weeks.

I understand your consternation regarding his SBing strategy and lists, but couldn't you also draw the conclusion that there may be more to SBing then jamming 4-ofs of the best cards in the SB?  Just an FYI, the fact that he plays mostly singletons in his sideboard has thrown off many players, since they're unsure of what card he'll have and are unable to play around it.  It's surprisingly effective (and funny!).

-Nick

Funny, perhaps. Effective? Absolutely not. Oxidize is essentially strictly inferior to Nature's Claim. There are also many other cards in the SB that are completely incomprehensible.

-Storm
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 08:53:58 PM by Stormanimagus » Logged

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« Reply #478 on: January 27, 2012, 12:12:28 PM »

Let's make a few things very, very clear, because apparently they're not understood:

If you wish to have a discussion about a deck/idea/theory on TheManaDrain.com you will not speak to the progenitor of said deck/idea/theory in a derogatory fashion.  This includes the blatantly obvious (calling an idea stupid, etc.) and the more subtle (calling a deck 'lazy', 'incomprehensible', saying that someone is 'jamming' cards in their deck.)

TheManaDrain is meant as an exchange of ideas.  It functions because people can take their thoughts, make them public and discuss them in a positive way.  We're builders.  I will not accept anyone tearing anyone else down, because the minute that those actions are sanctioned by the staff is the minute that the level of discourse on the site drops precipitously.

You can disagree with someone.  You can even believe (privately) that something that someone said is stupid.  But you are not allowed to communicate your point in a negative fashion.  If you disagree with someone (if something is "incomprehensible" to you) then you better explain why it's incomprehensible and you better not to do it in a manner that incites further conflict.

Now that everyone has had their fun, I expect all these points to be understood and adhered to, explicitly.  This thread is one more bad post away from getting locked, and any more comments that even hint at maliciousness will merit full warnings.

I've had enough.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 12:16:09 PM by Prospero » Logged

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« Reply #479 on: January 27, 2012, 12:49:41 PM »

Oxidize is essentially strictly inferior to Naturalize.
Except for the whole costing  {1}  additional thing.
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