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Author Topic: [Type 4] Shards spoiler discussion  (Read 13953 times)
Mr. Type 4
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« on: September 08, 2008, 02:40:51 PM »

Not much there so far.  Themost promising new card is this, I think:

Corpse Connoisseur     4 {B}
Creature - Zombie Wizard 
When Corpse Connoisseur comes into play, you may search your library for a creature card and put that card into your graveyard. If you do, shuffle your library.
Unearth 3 {B}  ( Return this card from your graveyard to play. It gains haste. Remove it from the game at end of turn or if it would leave play. Unearth only as a sorcery.)
3/3

Sooo, this guy is alright.  He can put an incarnation into the yard, or could help with other graveyard strategies.  Of course the Unearth mechanic is themost exciting bit on this card - hopefully we'll get some really good Unearth guys in this set.

We also have some possibly useful Planeswalkers!!

Sarkhan Vol      {2} {R} {G}
Planeswalker - Sarkhan 
+1: Creatures you control get +1/+1 and gain haste until end of turn.
-2: Gain control of target creature until end of turn. Untap that creature. It gains haste until end of turn.
-6: Put five 4/4 red Dragon creature tokens with flying into play.
4

Steals guys = pretty good.  The Ultimate is ok, and the +1 ability isn't outright terrible either.  I have never played Planeswalkers in type 4, so I have no idea how long they can be expected to live.  Probably not quite good enough, but could warrant some testing.

Tezzeret the Seeker      {3} {U} {U}
Planeswalker - Tezzeret 
+1: Untap up to two target artifacts.
-X: Search your library for an artifact card with converted mana cost X or less and put it into play. Then shuffle your library.
-5: Artifacts you control become 5/5 artifact creatures until end of turn.
 4

There's a lot of hype suppounding this guy already.  Untaping artifacts and turning them into monsters seems like mostly garbage (untapping could maaaaybe be cool in some narrow situations), but searching for one and putting it into play is cool - especially since you can do it without people seeing it comming.  Just not sure how many good artifacts cost 4 or less - that will be a big factor on this guy.  My initial reaction is that he's probably not strong enough for my stack.


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« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2008, 05:56:52 PM »

Planeswalkers, assuming they resolve, probably live longer than you'd think, since they're not affected by most wrath-style board sweepers. There's very little that actually destroys them apart from combat damage.

Tezzeret tutors up Vedalken Orrery and Fist of Suns (using the ACC rule)  pretty well, so if you use those, wheeeee.

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« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2008, 10:00:28 PM »

I think Sarkhan looks interesting too, and am also excited by the unearth mechanic.

It's not an official spoiler, but it's on mtgsalvation and looks very spicy if true:

Quote
Lich's Mirror
5
Artifact
Mythic

If you would lose the game, instead shuffle your hand, your graveyard and all permanents you own into your library, then draw seven cards and your life total becomes 20.
This could well lead to interesting situations where players try to kill themselves in response to artifact destruction!

Quote
Titanic Ultimatum
rrgggww
Sorcery
Rare

Until end of turn, creatures you control get +5/+5 and gain first strike, lifelink and trample.

#204
Yes it's a sorcery, but lifegain has always been good in type 4. There are quite a few token generators to combo with this (storm herd, one doezen eyes, symbiotic wurm to name a few)
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« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2008, 11:11:08 PM »

You wouldn't happen to have your current Type 4 list typed up would you and if you did would you mind sharing?

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« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 06:08:41 AM »



If lifegain is good, this guy might be playable.
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« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 11:43:12 AM »

This seems decent:

Jund Charm     {G} {R} {B}
Instant 
Choose one - Remove target player's graveyard from the game; or Jund Charm deals 2 damage to each creature; or put 2 +1/+1 counters on target creature.

I have played instants like Cremate before, and they only hit one card in a graveyard.  This blows out the whole thing and does a couple other semi-relevant things.  Not terrible.

Hindering Light    {U} {W}
Instant 
Counter target spell that targets you or a permanent you control.
Draw a card.

Very limited use counterspell, but cantrips.  This is probably pretty good. In Type 4, the most important cards to counter are the ones aimed directly at your or your stuff.

Sphinx Soverign seems good. That 3 damage to all players on a 6/6 flyer is really not too shabby. 6/6 is the minimum for a beater in my opinion. I'm afraid this creature will be unpopular with the other players at the table and will die quickly, but you'll prob get the +3 life out of it on the first turn minimum. 

Titanic Ultimatum is a big effect that could be pretty good even if you only have a couple guys.  I have found that cards similar to this have performed poorly in actual gameplay - casting a sorcery takes you out of the action and then you start attacking people... this is usually a bad idea.  You want to be there with your counterspell primed and ready for when the person you attack makes his plays to stay alive or hurt you back. 

Still, +5/+5 with lifelink and trample is a pretty serious effect.

Lich's Mirror seems really powerful, but I cant even imagine this one actually happening unless you actually kill yourself or someone else attacks you as a "favor."  You do not under any circumstances want to give an opponent a new grip of 7 and 20 life - that's crazy.  More than likely this will just get destroyed and it won't do anything.  I'm not sure if that's a good reason not to include it - it would be really cool if it happened.

NOW - if it comes out that you can just "concede" the game with this sucker in play and do a gain 20 life timetwister... in that case this thing is awesome.  we'll have to see how that turns out.







« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 12:53:16 PM by Mr. Type 4 » Logged

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« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2008, 01:55:01 AM »

Lich's Mirror seems really powerful, but I cant even imagine this one actually happening unless you actually kill yourself or someone else attacks you as a "favor."  You do not under any circumstances want to give an opponent a new grip of 7 and 20 life - that's crazy.  More than likely this will just get destroyed and it won't do anything.  I'm not sure if that's a good reason not to include it - it would be really cool if it happened.

NOW - if it comes out that you can just "concede" the game with this sucker in play and do a gain 20 life timetwister... in that case this thing is awesome.  we'll have to see how that turns out.

Probably you won't be allowed to concede the game. But in type 4 does mana burn exist? With infinite mana you could mana burn yourself out at any time.
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Mr. Type 4
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« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2008, 11:20:10 AM »

no mana burn, lol.  Play as though you've activated Mox Lotus.

We're pretty sure you can't get Lich Mirror by conceeding. 

The more I think about it, though, the more I think it's ok anyways.  There's a lot more ways to kill yourself that I had originally thought. 
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« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2008, 12:47:26 PM »

We're pretty sure you can't get Lich Mirror by conceeding. 

The more I think about it, though, the more I think it's ok anyways.  There's a lot more ways to kill yourself that I had originally thought. 

This seems like a textbook application of Rule 103.1's special exception for Rule 102.3a.  Just like with Platinum Angel, it's the one time the rules supersede the card:  conceding always results in game loss.
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« Reply #9 on: September 11, 2008, 02:56:18 PM »

The more I think about it, though, the more I think it's ok anyways.  There's a lot more ways to kill yourself that I had originally thought. 
Haha yup, the only time you'll be happy to Thicket Elemental into Phage Smile
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« Reply #10 on: September 16, 2008, 12:37:20 AM »

I think these Ultimatums definitely warrent consideration:

Cruel Ultimatum  {U} {U} {B} {B} {B} {R} {R}
Sorcery
Rare
Target opponent sacrifices a creature, discards three cards, and loses 5 life. Return target creature card from your graveyard to your hand. Draw three cards. You gain 5 life.

That sure is a lot packed onto one card! Might make it worth it, even at sorcery speed.

Brilliant Ultimatum  {W} {W} {U} {U} {U} {B} {B}
Sorcery
Rare
Remove the top five cards of your library from the game. An opponent separates those cards into two piles. Until end of turn, you may play cards in one pile as if they were in your hand without paying their mana cost.

Great if you use the ACC rule.  Otherwise, uselesss.

Violent Ultimatum  {B} {B} {R} {R} {R} {G} {G}     
Sorcery 
Rare
Destroy three target permanents

Triple Desert Twister?  Yes please!
This last one I'm not so sure of:

Spearbreaker Behemoth      {5} {G} {G}
Creature- Beast
Rare
Spearbreaker Behemoth is indestructible.
{1} : Target creature with power of 5 or greater is indestructible this turn.
5/5

He's pretty good on his own, but he does protect your other fatties most removal in most stacks, including most wrath effects.
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« Reply #11 on: September 16, 2008, 03:31:00 AM »

I am always wary of adding more sorcery-speed cards to my stack, so probably the Cruel and Brilliant Ultimata replace my Tidings and Breakthrough.  (Too bad you actually need a target creature card in your graveyard to cast Cruel Ultimatum.)  As for the Violent Ultimatum, I would usually rather have Tornado.  In any case, some autoinclude instants were also just spoiled in the Naya and Esper Charms.  I mean, I'm already running Reclaim and Inspiration, which are pretty good on account of being instants.

For the others: Hindering Light cantrips to protect your Prahv/your face, which seems good enough, if dull.  Jund Charm could potentially replace Mnemonic Nexus (or Tormod's Crypt).  On the other hand, I'd love to see some good unearth creatures for synergy with Gifts/Survival.  Mystic Zombie Snake FTW???  Well no, it's a Grixis mechanic, but you can probably count on an unearth guy that reanimates another dude on the C-I-P.  Ha, the creature version of Recoup!  Maybe there's an unearth Nekrataal out there, too, for the limited players.

Q
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« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2008, 10:31:09 AM »

Cruel Ultimatum seems rather insane.  it seems like it would be hard to resolve since someone is going to have a major incentive to counter it, but if it goes through.. Ouch! 

Destroy 3 perms seems fine.  Probably better than most sorcery speed wraths.

Brilliant Ultimatum would be an incredible instant (with ACC rule, obv).  It would also be awesome if it lasted until the beginning of your next turn.  As it stands I imagine it wouldn't be awesome enough to make the cut as a Sorcery in my stack, but if you aren't against taking a Sharpie to it and making it an instant then it would definitly be cool.

rumor has it that this card is comming out: Instant - Counter an Instant Spell, Destroy an Artifact, or put target creature on the bottom of its owners library.

That would be insane.
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2008, 10:00:50 PM »

Cruel Ultimatum seems rather insane.  it seems like it would be hard to resolve since someone is going to have a major incentive to counter it, but if it goes through.. Ouch! 

Destroy 3 perms seems fine.  Probably better than most sorcery speed wraths.

Brilliant Ultimatum would be an incredible instant (with ACC rule, obv).  It would also be awesome if it lasted until the beginning of your next turn.  As it stands I imagine it wouldn't be awesome enough to make the cut as a Sorcery in my stack, but if you aren't against taking a Sharpie to it and making it an instant then it would definitly be cool.

rumor has it that this card is comming out: Instant - Counter an Instant Spell, Destroy an Artifact, or put target creature on the bottom of its owners library.

That would be insane.

Keep in mind that flipping over counterspells with Brilliant Ultimatum isn't bad news at all--they protect the business you do flip, so certainly can't be ignored by the player making the split.

I suppose your hypothesized instant could be the Grixis Charm?  Would that really be insane, or just Spite/Malice good?

I'm intrigued by the Kederkt Leviathan.  It kind of reminds me of Obliterate, in that it (temporarily) clears the board and isn't really counterable, gogo unearth!  How about the Traitor King?  Seems solid, but his functionality is quite different than Chainer's, so I'm not sure what to compare him to.

One card we haven't mentioned yet is Empyrial Archangel.  I know, I know, creatures without activated abilities are slow and boring, but I mean, she's better than Simic Sky Swallower, right?  Shroud is pretty awesome, and her ability means she'll usually attack instead of sticking around for blocks.

Lots of big fatties and Timmy-style sorceries in this set.  Tempting, but I have to be disciplined.

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« Reply #14 on: September 17, 2008, 10:09:55 AM »

The latest spoilers are like Type 4 Christmas.

The Kederekt Leviathan is freakin awesome:

Kederekt Leviathan    {6} {U} {U}
Creature - Levitathan 
When Kederekt Leviathan comes into play, return all other nonland permanents to their owner's hands.
Unearth 
5/5

Return all perms on an Unearth guy = sooo good.  I will go out on a limb and say this guy would be good without Unearth.

Viking mentioned this one, too... I want to saythis is by far the best card so far:

Sedris the Traitor King      {3} {B} {U} {R}   
Legendary Creature - Demon   
Each creature card in your graveyard has unearth

   5/5

Not as good as Chainer (only does your creatures, can't loop sacrifice guys) or as unfair as Graverobber, but anything that launches all of the guys in your yard HAS to be insane.

Prince of Thralls     {4} {U} {B} {B} {R}
Creature - Demon 
Whenever a permanent is put in an opponent's graveyard, return it to play under your control unless its owner pays 3 life.
  7/7

This is fairly annoying.  everytime something dies it's owner take 3 damage, and it's a 7/7.  Really good in the end game where you may actually get to steal things.
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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2008, 10:37:06 AM »

Here are a few that didn't have names yet I saw that should be auto-includes I think:

White - 3(W)
Instant
Remove target attacking creature from the game.
Cycling (W)(G)(B)5: Remove up to 2 attacking Creatures from the game.

Blue - 2(U)
Instant
Return target permanent to owners hand.
Cycling (R)(G)(U)5: Return up to 2 permanents to owners hand.

The black one is discard 2 at random, the red is 6 damage to creature or player, and the green is +6/+6.  I don't think those three will make it, though the red one is tempting....

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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2008, 12:09:40 PM »

Quote
The black one is discard 2 at random, the red is 6 damage to creature or player, and the green is +6/+6.  I don't think those three will make it, though the red one is tempting....
If it's 6 damage on cycling,then it should definitly make the cut.  That's really good for a free ability that draws a card.
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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2008, 05:49:48 PM »

what about

WUUB

counter target spell contoller loses 3 you gain 3

Godsire  4RGGW
Creature - Beast 
Vigilance
: Put an 8/8 red, green, and white Beast creature token into play.
  8/8

Sharuum the Hegemon   3BUW
Legendary Artifact Creature - Sphinx 
Flying
When Sharuum the Hegemon comes into play, return target artifact card from your graveyard to play.
  5/5

Skill Borrower   2U


Artifact Creature - Human Wizard 
You play with the top card of your library revealed.
As long as the top card of your library is an artifact or a creature card, Skill Borrower gains all abilities of that card.
  1/3



Need I say any more(yes there are more)

holy crap alara is stacked for t4




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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2008, 07:57:23 PM »

Here are a few that didn't have names yet I saw that should be auto-includes I think:

White - 3(W)
Instant
Remove target attacking creature from the game.
Cycling (W)(G)(B)5: Remove up to 2 attacking Creatures from the game.

Blue - 2(U)
Instant
Return target permanent to owners hand.
Cycling (R)(G)(U)5: Return up to 2 permanents to owners hand.

The black one is discard 2 at random, the red is 6 damage to creature or player, and the green is +6/+6.  I don't think those three will make it, though the red one is tempting....


The red and black ones are definately making it in, too. They are just so strong. Even the green one is strong and will probably make it in; what's not to love about huge, swingy cantrips that don't take your spell for the turn? Godsire isn't that strong, just a big creature in a land of big creatures. Skill Borrower is interesting, but I just don't see his ability hitting that often with all the instants and CitP dorks that go into deck from my pool. Although when you flip door to nothingness with Skill borrower, it's going to be awesome. Sharuum the Hegemon is really interesting, I love cards that change in value depending on the cards you've drafted insted of just being abstractly strong. The "blue" and "black" Ultimatums seem as good as you can get in a socery, with the red one certainly being playable, but not one I'm going to pay for. All the charms seem playable too, strong versitile instants always find a good home, with the Bant looking like the strongest. Empyrial Archangel definately makes that cut too, assuming the price of mythics stays reasonable. Ad Nauseum would be tempting, but it just isn't nearly as good as midnight bargin.
« Last Edit: September 18, 2008, 10:52:15 AM by Wobbles » Logged
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« Reply #19 on: September 18, 2008, 10:47:47 AM »

Major note - Cycling cards with awesome added benefits = REALLY GOOD in Type 4.  So far even the more marginal cycling abilities (like Decree of Pain) have been pretty decent, so I think 6 damage and discard 2 at random seem pretty strong.  The green one maybe not, but the other 4 are going in for sure. 

Skill borrower doesn't seem even close to good enough, IMO.  Maybe if you play A LOT of artifacts, but I think artifacts are less than 10% of my stack, so the likelyhood of this guy doing something interesting before he's killed are slim.

Quote
WUUB

counter target spell contoller loses 3 you gain 3
haven't seen this one yet, but if it's for real then it's obviously included.  Undermine AND Absorb on one card seems like a pretty desireable combination.

Godsire is ok.  Dunno if I'll put him in mine or not but he's definitly Type 4 material at 8/8 vigalence with a relevant ability.

I like Sharuum - he's a 5/5 with a pretty good CIP.  I was playing Bringer of White Dawn, so this guy seems even better most of the time due to the fact that he doesn't have to survive until your upkeep.

Here's this one we talked about before:

Bant Charm    {G} {W} {U}
Instant 
Choose one - Destroy target artifact; or put target creature on the bottom of its owner's library; or counter target instant spell.

seems really good.
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« Reply #20 on: September 18, 2008, 11:31:43 AM »

Another great thing about shards is that it seems so well designed for moderately powered t4 stacks that it really has the potential to bring in new players. It seems entirely likely that this set alone could provide an extremely interesting t4 of 200ish cards. Big Timmy creatures and spells with unlikely casting costs are t4's bread and butter. Soul's Fire (Target creature you control in play deals damage equal to its power to target creature or player.) might be interesting for some t4 builds, but not mine. It's just a big burn spell which isn't that great, and it doesn't have the "conditional counterspell" nature of a card like fling. It is, however, really cool with Garza Zol and the like.
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« Reply #21 on: September 18, 2008, 07:22:36 PM »

dude paul, skill borrower hits creature too(as spoiled)

It can hit bolas, phage, cinder elemental, masticore effects, and mch much more

basically it is a conditional "yet another aether vortex"(my favorite t4 card) It should get at least a test
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« Reply #22 on: September 18, 2008, 11:00:53 PM »

We play with a few cards that we designed, one for each player in the group that is based either on their personality or Type 4 play style. One of them happens to be this:

Molten Brass Man
6
Artifact Creature - Golem

Molten Brass Man does not untap during your untap step.
Play with the top card of your library revealed. If the top card of your library is a creature or artifact card, Molten Brass Man is a copy of that card but retains it's own abilities.
Discard a card: Remove the top card of your library from the game.
 {1} : Untap Molten Brass Man. Play this ability only during your upkeep.
1/3

Or something very similar to that. I don't have the card on me.

Anyway point is, the card is pretty underwhelming, and it's ten times better than Skill Borrower. It can randomly get there, but it's never a very high pick.
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« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2008, 09:28:31 AM »

ok, missed that creature part - in that case it's worth a try.  I kinda think that it will be mostly underwhelming since as spoiled it won't take on the power/toughness of a good creature so it's limited to creatures that do something good in play (other than Morph creatures, evokes and other CIP stuff) OR artifacts.  It's going to be cool when it's an artifact.  I'm concerned that too often it won't be something cool. 

At least YA Ather Vortex works for all perms.  And it has some interesting interactions since the card is technically still in your deck.
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« Reply #24 on: September 19, 2008, 02:45:49 PM »

What are people's feelings about massive life gain cards. This card got me thinking:

Invincible Hymn 6WW
Sorcery
You gain life equal to the number of cards in your library.

Has anyone had a good experience adding cards like ancestrial tribute, beacon of immortality, Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, or granny's payback to their stack? I'm not a fan of massive lifegain without some other benefit just for what it does to the length of the games, but I am a big fan of the swingyness of Chant of Vitu-Ghazi. Thoughts?
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« Reply #25 on: September 19, 2008, 02:54:49 PM »

maybe... seems like it would take too long to count up but maybe
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« Reply #26 on: September 19, 2008, 04:04:50 PM »

Has anyone had a good experience adding cards like ancestrial tribute, beacon of immortality, Chant of Vitu-Ghazi, or granny's payback to their stack? I'm not a fan of massive lifegain without some other benefit just for what it does to the length of the games, but I am a big fan of the swingyness of Chant of Vitu-Ghazi. Thoughts?

The only was I ever liked was Blessed Wind, and that was really only because it was an answer to infinite life combos.
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« Reply #27 on: September 19, 2008, 04:18:56 PM »

I forgot to mention false cure is hilarious... we have some lifegain Very Happy
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« Reply #28 on: September 23, 2008, 11:00:19 AM »

Gather species  {3} {U} {U} {U}
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If a creature would comes into play under an opponent's control this turn, it comes into play under your control instead.

Desertion your crush of worms/symbiotic wurm dying? Don't mind if I do!
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« Reply #29 on: September 23, 2008, 12:11:42 PM »

gather species is the nuts.  Aside from straight stealing a creature as it's cast you can get persist creatures. 

+Mistmeadow Witch! I'll just take all your guys, k, thx.
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Mastriano's the only person I know who can pick up chicks and win magic tournaments at the same time.
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