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Author Topic: Null Rod and Activated Abilities/Mana Abilities/Moxen  (Read 1865 times)
LotusHead
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« on: January 01, 2007, 07:51:54 PM »

Null Rod
2
Artifact
Oracle text: Players can’t play artifacts’ activated abilities.

Quote
411. Playing Mana Abilities

411.1. To play a mana ability, the player announces that he or she is playing it and pays the activation cost, following the steps in rules 409.1b–i. It resolves immediately after it is played and doesn’t go on the stack. (See rule 408.2e.)

411.2. A player may play an activated mana ability whenever he or she has priority, or whenever he or she is playing a spell or activated ability that requires a mana payment. A player may also play one whenever a rule or effect asks for a mana payment, even in the middle of playing or resolving a spell or ability.

411.3. Triggered mana abilities trigger when an activated mana ability is played. These abilities resolve immediately after the mana ability that triggered them, without waiting for priority. If an activated or triggered ability produces both mana and another effect, both the mana and the other effect resolve immediately.
Example: An enchantment reads, “Whenever a player taps a land for mana, that player adds one mana of that type to his or her mana pool.” If a player taps lands for mana while playing a spell, the additional mana is added to the player’s mana pool immediately and can be used to pay for the spell.

411.3a If a triggered mana ability adds mana “of the same type” or “of the same color” to a player’s mana pool and the mana ability that triggered it produced more than one type or color of mana, the player to whose mana pool the mana is being added chooses which type or color of mana the triggered ability adds.

Null Rod (and some other artifact that costs 2ish that stops creature activated abilities) shuts down moxen.

This, and Force of Will (and maybe Chalice, Shop, Drain) defines Vintage. Yes, Dark Rit: I'm snubbing you.

Why does Null Rod shut down moxes when it is fairly well estabilished that Mana Abilities happen, and dont use the stack, etc?

Is it really a case of "RTFC" with Null Rod?

For full disclosure, I hate Null Rod. It is the bane of my existance. But current templating of new cards, and out of the blue NUKING of old cards (Time Vault) leads me to beliieve that Null Rod may be used incorrectly: Mox Hoser)

Like TheAtogLord's Mind'sDesire/Island thread (which baffled me initially) brought up a serious rules issue that serirous Vintage/MTG players need to know about.

TheAtogLord's initial arguement was weird, wacky and so forth, but it finally brought forth enlightenedness to us rules junkies.

Why does Null Rod affect Moxes?

p.s.
I faced a player who was a former student of mine (I am a Math Teacher) and he was shocked when I busted out with UBAStax versus his Gifts.noob deck.  He was unaware of Null Rod vs Moxen.  He has been playing Vintage since 2004 (he was my student in 2001ish)

The Null Rod thing has always bothered me.

Is it Null Rod and Grim Something that hoses Creature abilities that circumvent the Mana Ability thing?

Thanks for responses!

Quote
411.1. To play a mana ability, the player announces that he or she is playing it and pays the activation cost, following the steps in rules 409.1b–i. It resolves immediately after it is played and doesn’t go on the stack. (See rule 408.2e.)
How is this different for Island than Seat of the Synod?

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parallax
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« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2007, 08:14:39 PM »

Null Rod has nothing to do with the stack. Null Rod says you can't play the mana ability in the first place. Not using the stack is why mana abilities can't be countered. Most new cards say "that aren't mana abilities" in order to get around this, but Null Rod doesn't have that phrase.
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How about choosing a non-legend creature? Otherwise he is a UG instant Wrath of Frog.
Khahan
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« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2007, 08:55:05 PM »

The thing to remember is that a mana ability is still an activated ability. Therefore null rod affects it. 
Whether it would go on the stack or not during the activation is irrelevant. With Null Rod in play, you never get to the point where you can even announce you wish to use the ability.
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silvernail
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« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2007, 11:47:43 PM »

Null Rod was printed before they came up with the templating "except mana abilites" or "mana abilities may still be played".

The reason the card is so strong IS because it stops mana producing artifacts, and therefore they are not likely to change its oracle wording to stop it from preventing activated abilities of artifacts that happen to create mana.

I'm not sure if lands are considered to have activated abilites in regards to tapping for mana, but it seems logical that it is considered an activated ability since tapping the land is an "activation" cost. However Islands are not artifacts and therefore Null Rod cannot stop their activated abilites.

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Khahan
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« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2007, 06:42:52 AM »



I'm not sure if lands are considered to have activated abilites in regards to tapping for mana, but it seems logical that it is considered an activated ability since tapping the land is an "activation" cost. However Islands are not artifacts and therefore Null Rod cannot stop their activated abilites.



For the artifact lands (seat of the synod, darksteel citadel etc), you've answered your own question. They have abilities with a colon in them. Those are abilities are therefore activated abilities and are stopped by null rod.
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silvernail
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« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2007, 12:31:43 PM »

Well I was pretty sure all lands have activated abilities in regards to tapping for mana, I just wasnt sure if basic lands had a specific ruling that said they werent activated abilities or some such like that.I already knew why artifact lands were effected by Null Rod precisely because tapping for mana is an activated ability.
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CCClark
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« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2007, 04:41:41 PM »

So Cursed Totem + Living Plane or some such = no mana from lands?
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LotusHead
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« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2007, 05:11:20 PM »

So Cursed Totem + Living Plane or some such = no mana from lands?

That's what I was getting at, I just couldn't formulate my querry.

Mycosynth Lattice and Null Rod also = no mana from lands, but...

Are Cursed Totem and Null Rod the only cards that get around "Mana Abilities"?
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silvernail
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« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2007, 07:28:21 PM »

I'd have to guess 'no', there might be other similar cards out there, but I can't think of any.

On second thought, possibily Humility would do the trick.
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parallax
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« Reply #9 on: January 02, 2007, 08:43:50 PM »

Also, Detainment Spell from Time Spiral. The only "protection" mana abilities have is from being countered, because they're never on the stack and so can never be targeted. Anything that prevents activated abilities from being played affects mana abilities unless it says otherwise. The natural abilities of basic lands are also activated mana abilties and are affected the same way as normal mana abilities.
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silvernail
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« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2007, 10:44:20 PM »

Well the whole point of his asking "what other cards do this" is precisely because of the fact that many new cards that prevent use of activated abilities happen to say "unless they are mana abilities". Thus the question is what cards are there that prevent activated abilities and DO NOT  have "unless they are mana abilities" or some other similar rider.
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Khahan
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« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2007, 06:58:47 AM »

Well the whole point of his asking "what other cards do this" is precisely because of the fact that many new cards that prevent use of activated abilities happen to say "unless they are mana abilities". Thus the question is what cards are there that prevent activated abilities and DO NOT  have "unless they are mana abilities" or some other similar rider.

Try using gatherer.
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parallax
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« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2007, 12:18:52 PM »

Well the whole point of his asking "what other cards do this" is precisely because of the fact that many new cards that prevent use of activated abilities happen to say "unless they are mana abilities". Thus the question is what cards are there that prevent activated abilities and DO NOT  have "unless they are mana abilities" or some other similar rider.

Arrest
Cursed Totem
Detainment Spell
Gelid Shackles
Interdict
Katabatic Winds
Lost in Thought
Null Rod
Serra Bestiary
Stasis Cocoon
Stupefying Touch
Trickbind
Volrath's Curse

Honorable mention goes to:
Humble
Humility
Sudden Spoiling
Titania's Song
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How about choosing a non-legend creature? Otherwise he is a UG instant Wrath of Frog.
Godder
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« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2007, 10:47:39 PM »

The rules questions are done here.
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