TheManaDrain.com
April 16, 2014, 10:50:29 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Search Calendar Login Register  
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
  Print  
Author Topic: Worse Than Fish 3.0  (Read 28504 times)
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8148


When am I?


View Profile Email
« on: May 23, 2005, 10:44:53 AM »

Okay, now that I played this deck at SCG, the list is entirely public, so it's time for another WTF thread. Hopefully this one won't get as unmanageable as the last two.

To start, the list:

4 Wild Mongrel
4 Basking Rootwalla
4 Spiketail Hatchling
3 Ninja of the Deep Hours

4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 AEther Vial
4 Chalice of the Void
2 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Black Vise
1 Ancestral Recall
1 Time Walk

4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Island
3 Tropical Island
1 Strip Mine
4 Wasteland
1 Library of Alexandria
1 Black Lotus
1 Mox Sapphire
1 Mox Emerald

4 Ray of Revelation
1 Tundra
1 Plains
3 Phyrexian Furnace
3 Oxidize
2 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
1 Umezawa's Jitte

Spiketail isn't amazing, but that slot has to be a blue creature, so my options were limited. I may just bring the Kiras back into the main and find something else to fit those last two slots. Kira is so hot, since she trumps Old Man, Trike (w/out welder), and random removal. The extra cost to equip Jitte was only annoying once, and there I just made Kira a ninja. Vise was a last minute addition that only showed up a couple of times. I may swap it with the SB Jitte.

I never got to draw the Rays against Oath, but I've been been beating that deck without them in tournament play. Of course, no one has Oathed up Ancient Hydra against me yet, which I'm probably more afraid of than Akroma.

The mana is also tough to balance, since vial can lead to hands with very little business. I only had to mulligan due to not having enough mana twice, but I did have a few mulligans where I had to throw back mana-heavy hands. The deck can probably run off 23 sources, but if I move Kira to the MD, it'll probably stay at 24.

I'll probably discuss some of the design and development of the deck in the tournament report I promised knut, but feel free to ask any questions here. I leave for Europe this afternoon, though, so I won't be online from then until late tuesday (or possibly longer, if I have internet problems).
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Machinus
Keldon Ancient
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2489



View Profile
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2005, 10:51:02 AM »

My main question is the inclusion of vial. You only have 4 creatures in the 1 slot and 8 in the 2 slot. Does it generate tempo consistently enough to run it instead of 4 more guys? Affinity with an 8/7 distrubution can get screwed so much by drawing a vial and but no beaters. Does the safety from counterspells really make it worth running?
Logged

T1: Arsenal
Kowal
My name is not Brian.
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2499


Reanimate your feet!


View Profile
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2005, 10:58:31 AM »

The majority of the times I saw Jacob, he was abusing Vial by replaying his ninja'd out guys without losing tempo, or putting his dorks through a Standstill.  Though I've seen Jacob play the deck only a handful of times, every time I watched his Vials were extremely crucial to the deck.
Logged


Jesus finds you repulsive.
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8148


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2005, 11:12:35 AM »

Vial is absolutely amazing. In addition to the obvious synergies with Ninjas and Standstill, with even two creatures in hand it boosts my mana b 3-4 over the next couple of turns, leaving me free to play wastelands, factories, standstills, or jitte, while keeping threats coming. There were a couple horrible hands that I had to mulligan, like double vial, double force, 3 land, or double vial, double chalice, double force, one land, but dropping an early vial is very good, and drawing one late usually is no worse than drawing a random land (ie, it gets pitched to mongrel).

Oh, and a couple times they provided crucial "green" mana to let me drop rootwallas or dogs.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Freelancer
Basic User
**
Posts: 366


Allmighty to a extend

remcoheerdink@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2005, 11:29:21 AM »

A couple of questions:

1) Why a jitte over Sword of Fire and Ice? In several threads the discussion usually ended up giving the nod to SoFI because it has a immediate effect when equipped and has protection instead of a irrelevant ability (life gaining).
2) Why 3x tropical island and not 4x? Any particular reason?
3) What do you think about running waterfront bouncers in the spiketail hatchling slot? They are both a blue creature and provide creature removal and (if you don't draw mongrel) discard to drop rootwalla's and/or useless cards.


Oh and I look forward to reading your tournament report, I presume it gets posted on TMD and not on starcitygames (as premium)?
Logged

Keep exploring....

Freelancer ish confuzzled

Want to join the newest and best team in the world? Send me a PM!

"Instead of mwsplay.net, call  67.165.209.105 with MWS to find a TMD-only scrub-free host!"
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8148


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2005, 11:47:26 AM »

A couple answers:

1) Jitte is much, much better than swords, because it can actually kill creatures, instead of being an expensive curiosity. Jitte took down Exalted and Platinum in two different matches, which is the kind of thing that U/g otherwise can't do. Jitte also won a game against Goblins where SoFaI would have forced me to just race.
2) 3 Trops because I never needed 4.
3) I tried bouncer, but it was just so weak against control and combo. I may give it another go, but I'm serously considering gaea's skyfolk at this point.

I'll check with knut, but I don't think my report would be premium. If he says it would, it'll go up here instead.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Freelancer
Basic User
**
Posts: 366


Allmighty to a extend

remcoheerdink@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2005, 12:02:52 PM »

If you add in waterfront bouncer for the spiketails (which seem like 1/1 flying critters with most of the time with a irrelevant ability) it means you can still deal with fat (tinkered out or otherwise) and add in SoFI getting more draw and more protection for your creatures, it also means a null rod doesn't shut down your equipment (when SoFI is equipped). This is just a suggestion of the top of my head though.

Against control and combo spiketails usually don't have a very relevant ability as well (unless you manage to manascrew them) and if bouncer can get blocked there is also something to bounce. Smile

Is it maybe worth it to run one less vial to prevent the double vial hands (essentially a mulligan), or the hands without creatures and with a vial (less suckage than double vial but still not good)?

Quote
I'll check with knut, but I don't think my report would be premium. If he says it would, it'll go up here instead.

I love you. Very Happy
Logged

Keep exploring....

Freelancer ish confuzzled

Want to join the newest and best team in the world? Send me a PM!

"Instead of mwsplay.net, call  67.165.209.105 with MWS to find a TMD-only scrub-free host!"
Ape
Basic User
**
Posts: 46


coke_smurf@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2005, 12:27:37 PM »

First of all, congratz on your finish. The deck is really cool.
I immediately downloaded it for MWS, and got to play some games. I've only played a few (<20), but here are the things that got me thinking;

1. Wild Mongrel. While he is a really good beater, I don't like him in this deck. It's true that you can pitch the 'dead' cards to him, but he was always a bit slow, and much weaker than in, let's say, RG Beatz. What about Nimble Mongoose, the creature that will lead us to point 2;
2. I noticed that with this deck, it's quite easy to get 7 or more cards in your graveyard. Combining that with my thoughts on the weak Wild Mongrel and Birdsh*t in mind, I began to test Nimble Mongoose. I haven't test a lot with this guy, but he seems very powerful to me. A 3/3 can't-be-the-target body is not something you can easily ignore, but this guy has another role; Ninjutsuing out our Hero (I have a new best friend) on turn two. We could only do that with a turn 1 Rootwalla, or land + mox. Since we play only 2 moxes, the last situation won't come up that often. Playing 4 more 1-drops will result in more early Ninjas.
3. Spiketail Hatchling. Only usefull a couple of times, I think Waterfront Bouncer is definitely better in this slot. We don't have any removal, and this guy solely handles Angels, Colossus, Akroma's, Tog and random Fat. Really good.

Can you explain why you run three Ninjas? I know there aren't that many creatures to support more of them, but I played four form the beginning, and they really pwn. I think we can support four of these guys.

EDIT: How were the Kira's? How did they effect your games?

Ape.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 12:29:24 PM by Ape » Logged

Quote from: MuzzonoAmi
Oh my god. Steve, I don't know what to say. You've broken metagames that don't even exist yet.
Quote from: Gabethebabe
Because if I do understand the sentence, then maybe you should read the card again

Know thy place.
Rico Suave
True
Community Adepts
Basic User
****
Posts: 799


Omnibrad
View Profile Email
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2005, 12:41:59 PM »

Wild Mongrel is one of the best green creatures to have been printed.  He single-handedly can trump such cards as Akroma, which is something that a Fish creature would normally never be able to do.  The fact this deck can actually draw cards to fuel him makes it that much better than his use in R/G.  I think he is the last creature that should be cut.

Congrats Jacob.
Logged

Suddenly, Fluffy realized she wasn't quite like the other bunnies anymore.

-Team R&D-
-noitcelfeR maeT-
Ape
Basic User
**
Posts: 46


coke_smurf@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #9 on: May 23, 2005, 12:52:34 PM »

Quote
He single-handedly can trump such cards as Akroma

Akroma has Vigilance, First Strike and Flying. And Wild Mogrel is going to trump her? Not very likely, it means you need to discard 5 cards from your hand.

Ape.
Logged

Quote from: MuzzonoAmi
Oh my god. Steve, I don't know what to say. You've broken metagames that don't even exist yet.
Quote from: Gabethebabe
Because if I do understand the sentence, then maybe you should read the card again

Know thy place.
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8148


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2005, 01:11:08 PM »

Quote
He single-handedly can trump such cards as Akroma

Akroma has Vigilance, First Strike and Flying. And Wild Mogrel is going to trump her? Not very likely, it means you need to discard 5 cards from your hand.
At a smaller tournament where I field-tested this list, Wild Mongrel trumped a Juzam. It's more than possible to take out one huge creature with some excess lands. At this event, against FCG, Mongrel survived a five-point gempalm incinerator with lackey combat damage on the stack. Then he picked up Jitte and won me the game.

At any rate, I certainly wouldn't cut mongrel for mongoose, and there really isn't anything to cut for more green creatures unless you want to remove some of the artifacts (and vial is a much better 1-drop for ninjutsu anyway).

Kira didn't see too much action, but she did shut down a swords and something else.

As for your "no removal" comment, that's what the green creatures and Jitte are for. Bouncer may supplement that, but he's not going to be your first line of defense.

While Ninja is great, running four was just unwieldy. You only want to see two when everything is going perfectly anyway, and at other times he can be very clunky.

Edit: while I could cut a vial, it really doesn't seem worth it to do so. I could also cut a chalice, but it's so important to get those cards out turn 1 that I don't mind extra copies occasionally.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 01:15:05 PM by Jacob Orlove » Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Kowal
My name is not Brian.
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 2499


Reanimate your feet!


View Profile
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2005, 01:13:59 PM »

Quote
He single-handedly can trump such cards as Akroma

Akroma has Vigilance, First Strike and Flying. And Wild Mogrel is going to trump her? Not very likely, it means you need to discard 5 cards from your hand.

Ape.

Been there, done that.  Just ask Joe Bushman of Team Meandeck fame.  As a matter of fact, I've even witnessed Wild Mongrel kill Phyrexian Dreadnought in Bombs Over Baghdad, due to a little help from Fiery Temper.  Do the math before you send your guys in against a player with Wild Mongrel on board.
Logged


Jesus finds you repulsive.
savekeeper
Guest
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2005, 01:41:39 PM »

First of, congratulations on your high finish. The deck looks awesome, and if I can't get any Tundra's for Bird shit, I think it will be my new T1 deck for sure.

I do have a few questions:

- The Black Vise seems very random. Was it ever usefull after turn 1 or 2?

- I guess the first Chalice goes for 0, but what about the second one? Won't a Chalice for 1 hurt the deck? How good was Chalice anyway? I would never have thought about playing it in a deck like Fish.

- What are the decks matchups like. As in, which are good, even and bad?

- How do you sideboard with this deck? What do you take out when sideboarding card X against deck Y? This is something a lot of people never talk about but is very important IMO.

Hopefully I'm not asking for too much here.  Razz
Logged
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8148


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2005, 01:44:10 PM »

I'll go over my matchups and sideboarding in my report, but like I mentioned in the first post, vise may move to the SB.

You really only want or need Chalice 0. All the rest pretty much don't do anything.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
Tristal
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 233


Knocks you all down


View Profile
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2005, 01:46:46 PM »

Kira and Jitte, in the same maindeck?  That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Quote
Creatures you control have “Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability for the first time in a turn, counter that spell or ability.”

Kira is happy to counter the first Equip activation.  Have you found this to be a problem?

Does Pithing Needle have potential in this deck?
Logged

No longer a DCI Level 1 Judge.  Just a guy who likes rules knowledge.
Jacob Orlove
Official Time Traveller of TMD
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 8148


When am I?


View Profile Email
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2005, 01:52:10 PM »

Kira and Jitte, in the same maindeck?  That sounds like a recipe for disaster.

Quote
Creatures you control have “Whenever this creature becomes the target of a spell or ability for the first time in a turn, counter that spell or ability.”

Kira is happy to counter the first Equip activation.  Have you found this to be a problem?

Does Pithing Needle have potential in this deck?
I know about that interaction already:
The extra cost to equip Jitte was only annoying once, and there I just made Kira a ninja.

I'll test pithing needle eventually, I supposed, but it's not legal for another month.
Logged

Team Meandeck: O Lord,
Guard my tongue from evil and my lips from speaking guile.
To those who slander me, let me give no heed.
May my soul be humble and forgiving to all.
trufunxoldya
Basic User
**
Posts: 5


View Profile
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2005, 03:50:34 PM »

First of, congratulations on your high finish.

Don't forget to congrat SWK.   Wink
Logged

Lamont, call 911.  It's on.
Dozer
Shipmaster
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 615


Am I back?

102481564 dozerphone@googlemail.com DozerTMD
View Profile WWW Email
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2005, 06:25:26 PM »

Then he picked up Jitte and won me the game.

That is so true. The Jitte does something that artifacts tended to do in earlier times, but which has recently fallen by the wayside a little: It gives colors access to something they usually do not have. With the appearent decline in Null Rods, mostly in favor of Chalice (see WU-Tang, for example), equipment is actually playable. I think Jitte is still underestimated, even though Jacob prominently piloted it to a very good finish, which he deserved - congratulations.

The huge, obvious difference between Jitte and Sword of F&I is that a creature with Jitte does not actually need to deal combat damage to a player. That means it not only acts a a threat-booster, but also as a possible fall-back in case the situation gets bad. If you get two hits with a Jitte, even if your creature dies, there are few board situations you cannot handle sans Stax/Smokestack.

This is especially true in Vintage, since board positions are much less interactive and less contested than in Block as PT Philly presented it. We have no dancing Hana Kamis, no exploding Myojin, no trampling Kodamas, no saccing Elders. What we get are Goblin Welders, some artifact fat, and a random assortement of big creatures from Platz over Akroma to Colossus. Jitte deals with (most of) these. It does not deal with Smokestack, Chalice and Null Rod. However, once Jitte is down, the clock speeds up like nothing. Every hit means 4 more potential damage. Especially on a Mongrel, this can end a game in less time than usual. The requisite Moxen enable plays like Turn 2 Mongrel, Turn 3 Jitte + Equip, attack = 2 damage, turn 4 six damage, turn 5 Jitte + Mongrel discard = lethal. That is pretty good for an honest aggro deck (i.e. no combo finish).

(Yeah, it's aggro-control, if you want it to. But Jitte only makes it more so.)

Sword of Fire and Ice cannot do that. A potential power boost from Jitte is as good as Pro: Red (or Blue) ever was, and Jitte clears blockers out of the way without having to get through to the player to get an effect. This is relevant whenever an opposing creature is in the way, which happens more often these days. Whereas Sword may provide actual card advantage, Jitte provides a virtual card advantage that is very hard to top. The argument should not even be close. And there is also the interaction with Standstill to consider, under which Jitte provides better, more spell-like utility than the Sword does.

As a nice side effect, Jitte also can put you out of Tendrils or double Colossus range, which is important vs a variety of decks. The lifegain is not as functionless as one might think. I'd like to know if that ever actually mattered, so I'm waiting for Jacob's report.

Dozer
« Last Edit: May 23, 2005, 06:30:46 PM by Dozer » Logged

a swashbuckling ninja

Member of Team CAB, dozercat on MTGO
MTG.com coverage reporter (Euro GPs) -- on hiatus, thanks to uni
Associate Editor of www.planetmtg
urza23
Basic User
**
Posts: 9


View Profile Email
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2005, 09:19:22 PM »

@ Jacob, I was just wondering if you ever considered running Quirion Dryad in place of maybe Mongrel or something.
Also is there any better choices than the 4 MB Chalice, something like Daze? (sorry if some of this stuff was already discussed I skimmed over it quickly)
Logged
endersdouble
Basic User
**
Posts: 17


View Profile
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2005, 10:02:16 PM »

@urza23, I'm hardly an expert--but I'd guess he'd say no, since he uses both Aether Vials and Ninjas, neither of which pump the Dryad.

Waterfront Bouncer'd probably be better, but what about Cloud of Fairies in the Spiketail slot?
Logged
urza23
Basic User
**
Posts: 9


View Profile Email
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2005, 10:19:53 PM »

Ya you are right, those slipped my mind. I don't know what I was thinking, but do you think they could be made possible. The dryad doesn't have to be enormous. If you drop and early Dryad then a Standstill and beat for 2 till they play a spell, you still draw into cantrips. If you drop the Chalice for Daze or something that increases the number of counter that can possibly go on Dryad.
Logged
ChaosTheory
Basic User
**
Posts: 45



View Profile
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2005, 11:16:19 PM »

Jacob: Congrats, you just made Jitte even more retardedly good Smile + your T8

Not sure if were just looking for a vanilla creature to replace Spiketail, but what about Flying Men?
1/1 with Evasion for U seems pretty good to replace Spiketail with Smile
Plus,  he's just so cool to play with.
I'm also wondering about Chalice though. If you only want it out for 0, should there be 4 in the deck?
I'm thinking about running 3, then run the Vise main with 3 Jittes main as well just to try it out.
Too many times I've found myself drawing a Chalice when I didn't need it anymore, and just pitched it to Mongrel, though I guerss in the mid-late game it would be the same with Black Vise in a sense.
Any thought on this?
Logged

Team Dead Deck
Quote from: Revvik
At one point I had to make the choice of fixing the brakes on my car, or buying a signed/altered Ancestral Recall.  Guess which I spent my money on.
And everyone else has brakes.  I've been fine so far!
empathogen
Basic User
**
Posts: 11

withravenoushunger@hotmail.com iignitestuff
View Profile Email
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2005, 11:37:07 PM »

Not sure if were just looking for a vanilla creature to replace Spiketail, but what about Flying Men?
1/1 with Evasion for U seems pretty good to replace Spiketail with Smile
Plus,  he's just so cool to play with.

I suspect it's to keep a uniform casting cost of 2 for Aether Vial.

I'm also wondering why no Cloud Of Fairies...granted, you can't vial them out, but the 2 mana benefit you get can pay for a Jitte/equip cost/mongrel/standstill/etc.
Logged

Are there no stones in heaven but what serve for the thunder?
[supa_t(im)]
Basic User
**
Posts: 268


ozzyhed91685
View Profile
« Reply #23 on: May 24, 2005, 12:37:36 AM »

I'm wondering why only three ninja?  Without curiosity or Sword that seems to be where the consitent draw comes from.  I would think the idea play is turn 1 drop a 1cc critter, turn 2 ninjutsu out a ninja.

I'm also confused about the vice, it just seems so inconsitent and not worth putting in for a card that hardly wins you the game.  I would think that 4th ninja would be better here, but, obviously there are things I don't know about the deck.  I eagerly await that tourney report.
Logged

Team Ankle-Biter Subjugators

"There are some who call me...Tim."

You may have noticed that I have trouble communicating on message boards.
Klep
OMG I'M KLEP!
Administrator
Basic User
*****
Posts: 1783



View Profile
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2005, 01:05:08 AM »

I'm wondering why only three ninja? 
He already discussed this, and the answer was that they tend to clog up your hand if you have too many.
Logged

So I suppose I should take The Fringe back out of my sig now...
waSP
Plays bad decks
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 182


79608067 wasp1028
View Profile
« Reply #25 on: May 24, 2005, 01:10:26 AM »

I haven't been following the development of the decks I don't play recently, so I don't know if this was abandoned long ago, but, what about running Gush in there?  Especially if you decide to play a couple of Waterfront Bouncers.  Having mana all the time doesn't seem to be that crucial (especially once you've got your Jitte equipped).  It could serve as a sort of 5th Standstill.

I would argue for keeping Spiketails.  They force your opponents to play slower (often).  That said, have you considered Werebear for the Spiketail slot?  Turn 2 Werebear could mean a turn 3 Jitte + activation (if you have a Rootwalla Sad).
Logged

Churchill: wtf the luftwaffle is attacking me
Ape
Basic User
**
Posts: 46


coke_smurf@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #26 on: May 24, 2005, 01:54:35 AM »

I'm wondering why only three ninja? 
He already discussed this, and the answer was that they tend to clog up your hand if you have too many.

Yeah, sure they clog up in your hand, but when playing Wild Mongrel, this shouldn't be a problem. There are also 4 Vials en 4 Chalices in the deck, and Vial nr. 3 and 4 are also useless, as are Chalice nr. 2, 3 and 4. Your 2nd and 3rd Ninja can actually do something (Why don't you do something! - LOL, Ape's friend who <3's Gush). Plus, you will draw your first one quicker and more often, and in need they can be discarded to Force of Will, since you don't run that much blue cards.
Logged

Quote from: MuzzonoAmi
Oh my god. Steve, I don't know what to say. You've broken metagames that don't even exist yet.
Quote from: Gabethebabe
Because if I do understand the sentence, then maybe you should read the card again

Know thy place.
[supa_t(im)]
Basic User
**
Posts: 268


ozzyhed91685
View Profile
« Reply #27 on: May 24, 2005, 10:42:54 AM »

Quote from: Ape
Yeah, sure they clog up in your hand, but when playing Wild Mongrel, this shouldn't be a problem. There are also 4 Vials en 4 Chalices in the deck, and Vial nr. 3 and 4 are also useless, as are Chalice nr. 2, 3 and 4. Your 2nd and 3rd Ninja can actually do something (Why don't you do something! - LOL, Ape's friend who <3's Gush). Plus, you will draw your first one quicker and more often, and in need they can be discarded to Force of Will, since you don't run that much blue cards.
I think I'm trying to say what you are saying.  Its important to get a ninja into play early, like preferably turn 2-3, and with 4 it is much easier to get one in your starting hand.  You run 4 of other cards that are crucial but mostly come down as a 1 of.  But not ninja, which you say you want two of.  He does pitch to FoW and mongrel, and then you have to account for how many times one copy is going to get killed.

It just seems safer, but I suppose with standstill over brainstorm its not needed as much.
Logged

Team Ankle-Biter Subjugators

"There are some who call me...Tim."

You may have noticed that I have trouble communicating on message boards.
Blitzbold
Full Members
Basic User
***
Posts: 56


131670098
View Profile
« Reply #28 on: May 24, 2005, 01:50:32 PM »

Another blue creature which might be worth testing in the Spiketail's Slot is Voidmage Apprentice.
With Vial set to "2" he can come down as an uncounterable (short Stifle) Counterspell. Without Vial though his CC might be prohibitive. Nevertheless I especially like the synergy between Standstill, Vial and Kai's ergo.
Logged

The second mouse gets the cheese.

Ape
Basic User
**
Posts: 46


coke_smurf@hotmail.com
View Profile
« Reply #29 on: May 24, 2005, 01:57:52 PM »

You mean Voidmage Prodigy. Voidmage Apprentice is the morph Wizard.
While you can do some nice tricks with Kai en Vials, but because there are no other wizards in the deck, it's always one time only. I don't think that Kai belongs here.

Ape.
Logged

Quote from: MuzzonoAmi
Oh my god. Steve, I don't know what to say. You've broken metagames that don't even exist yet.
Quote from: Gabethebabe
Because if I do understand the sentence, then maybe you should read the card again

Know thy place.
Pages: [1] 2 3 ... 7
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.18 | SMF © 2006-2007, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.196 seconds with 20 queries.