Flayer of the Hatebound is probably the best finisher since it has reach, and smaller amounts than 20 can be used to wipe your opponents board.
Griselbrand, Muldrotha I think are the best facilitators since they can win on their own. Muldrotha you can easily grind out wins (2 Hollow Ones every turn, and a landfall) and Griselbrand plays well with all the pitch spells to buy time.
I totally agree for the full 12 force list but I'm testing lessor # of forces + lesser # of powders with more accelerant (wraith & probe). 4 may still be the right # of powders but it also may be worth giving up a little consistency for more speed/evasion in the current meta. Atleast that's what I'm exploring.
Can the deck function without drawing Bazaar? Is a pretty big one, in my opinion. There are a lot of Dredge lists that are forced into mulligan for Bazaar for all 3 games, and that's a limitation of the deck.
2xAnimate Dead / Dance of the Dead
1xLotus (or LED)
Generate infinite mana using loop, you can cast any creatures/planeswalkers during this period as well. Next, cast Muldrothas directly using the infinite mana and you can cast any artifacts/enchantments.
Anyway, since were on the topic, I was one of the people WAYYYYY back in the day pioneering Dredge and refusing to add mana to the deck. Here is a small tourney winning list from 2009. I was running some interesting stuff. Dredge doesn't even look the same anymore. I ran Sundering Titan because I just liked the artwork, and it thew people off.
@AeonSovarius This is actually a great opportunity for me, as I was starting to write a dredge primer for vintage. This will allow me to collect and summarize my thoughts, so hopefully I do a good job!
What is a regular dredge list: Right now, because of how the meta has evolved around beating PO, Pitch Dredge is really good. Here is a sample list that I would recommend. I would say that it is less explosive than sum lists, but is still very explosive and powerful.
4 Hollow One may vs. SB really just depends on your list and available space/flex slots. Having HO main may make you a bit weaker G1, but will compensate by giving you more SB space for G2 and 3. Personally I dislike Gurmag Angler, and I think many people would agree. He is simply counter-intuitive to how dredge function at a basic level.
Bloodghast vs Ichorid: This is heavily dependent on your list. Fatestitcher dredge is much faster version that goes for the turn 1 or turn 2 kill as consistently and quickly as possible. This version achieves this by using either Sun Titan or Molderhulk to return a dredged Bazaar of Baghdad onto the battlefield to continue you dredging. As you could imagine, this makes Bloodghast pretty good. In most other lists though you want Ichorid, as he is the better and more synergistic threat. An example can be found here
Lands: As with nearly all cards, this depends on your list. If you are running more Blooghast, you can run more consistent lands like Dakmor Salvage and Undiscovered Paradise. You do not have any other reason to not run the Rainbow land, as far as I know.
Creeping Chill: I personally really like the card, but it is completely unproven. I think if Oath or DPS where to become meta, then it could potential be good.
Elesh Norn and FKZ serve very different purposes (in my mind). FKZ, and Dragonlord Kolaghan (DLK), are both Dread Return (DR) targets that are meant to finish your opponent off the turn they are put onto the battle field. Elesh Norn, and occasionally Ashen Rider, serve more of a helping purpose. What I mean by that is they can take you from a not-winning position, into a very winning position (like if your opponent has a million creatures).
GY hate: I would say this has to do with the expected meta. I would avoid Ravenous Trap, as it seems very risky and bad in the mirror. For Leyline, it is generally seen as a low cost inclusion that can help you against a fair amount of the field because of how most decks abuse the graveyard.
Never ever run less than 4 Serum Powders. The only reason this deck is a thing is because of Bazaar. How do you maximize your chances of getting Bazaar? 4 Serum Powder. This deck is bad without Bazaar. Play 4 Serum Powder.
If you want to talk more or ask any more questions, just let me know. I am more than happy to answer anything. I hope this answers all your questions and that everything I wrote is clear. Good luck!
@serberoth the chance of you having the card in your opening hand + top 2-3 is a few percentage points; that times how much it changes the match isn't worth what it costs you.
dredge, of all decks, least wants to run over 60, because it wants to get to one of its 4 copies of one specific card. in other decks, particularly in non-vintage formats, it's easier to justify stuff like 61-63 card scapeshift decks.
anything worth playing is worth putting in the 60; if you decide to add an ingot chewer, for example, to a 60, for example, it is likely not the 61st card, something else is, and you cut that.
if you want to play "sideboard" cards main you can, but it doesn't require going beyond 60. jeskai doesn't go to 61 to play fragmentize or wear/tear main, they cut another card for it.
@oestrus it’s typically not used, and it’s very situational. I mainly put it on the list as an additional option for people to consider. You are correct that dread returning it doesn’t really do much in the short term at all, and hard casting it would be very difficult. I actually haven’t tried it out myself either, but it has enough going for it that I felt it deserved at least some mention. I have seen it used a couple times in Dredge/Reanimator lists. But I’m thinking it’s more of a niche card that only works in certain builds and is very very situational.
@gkraigher Library is best in sideboarded games to help you find your sideboard cards (be they anti-hate or transformational stuff).
On Chain of Vapor, I'm not much of a fan. It gets hit by Mental Misstep, but more importantly, it's really bad against Containment Priest and Rest in Peace. Containment Priest has Flash, so it only works for 1 turn if they're tapped out. If they know you're on Chain of Vapors, they can leave up their mana to recast their Priest, making your Chain of Vapors worthless.
Using it on Rest in Peace at least works for a turn, but you're starting from scratch since there's no way to have a graveyard while Rest in Peace is in play. It usually takes more than 1 turn to get going if you're starting from scratch. Once they recast it, it wipes your graveyard again, nullifying your progress. You can get some zombies out of the deal, maybe, but that hardly seems comparable to things that take it out forever.
In my opinion, Chain of Vapor is outdated. It was great when everyone was using Leyline of the Void as their go-to anti-Dredge hate. Now it's bad.