@ian-mars I agree. Pyroblast which is Bugs bane was largely margenalised with Karn Forge and Pitch dredge. Jeskai and RUG will get a major boost by effectively being able to replace Misstep with Pyro which is a net zero gain vs shops but is a huge tempo swing vs BUG
My experience shows that humans have risen in prominence relative to eldrazi as both occupy a similar metagame slot and humans has a bit better disruption and draw. The deck seems like it should still be fine but I haven't seen it very much recently.
It won't be much of a tourney report. It has been over two weeks, it went badly and I'm a bit down on vintage still. Anyway: I went 2-3 (again). This was the meta:
UW Sharkstill, Bug, White Eldrazi, Golos Stax, HollowVine, UB Witch, 2xDoomsday, Breach, Blue Aggro, Song of creation combo.
3 windswept heath
3 verdant catacombs
1 Maze of ith
1 strip mine
1 the tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 black lotus
1 mox emerald
1 mox pearl
1 mox jet
1 mox ruby
2 mox diamond
1 chalice of the void
4 wrenn and six
2 swords to plowshares
1 mental misstep
3 abrupt decay
3 once upon a time
2 force of vigor
4 deathrite shaman
4 thalia, guardian of thraben
1 collector ouphe
4 archon of emeria
2 knight of the reliquary
2 void mirror
1 swords to plowshares
3 surgical extraction
1 abrupt decay
2 force of vigor
2 collector ouphe
1 knight of the reliquary
Match 1: 2-0 against Sharkstill.
These games went fairly quickly. In the first game, he accidentally played into his own standstill and couldn't regain control afterwords. In the second game, we played draw-go until my hand was strong enough and broke the standstill. I can't remember how I won.
Match 2: 2-1 against Doomsday.
It's a bit silly, but I remember next to nothing from this match. I was a bit drunk and very nervous, but I believe I played well and drew well too. This deck has game against Doomsday now, which is my only real takeaway from this tournament.
Match 3: 1-2 against Doomsday.
I won the first game with several pieces of disruption. He went on to win the following two, and in both games maneuvered out from very difficult positions. I believe I was a favourite to win all three games. This player went on to win the tourney.
Match 4: 0-2 against Bug.
This match went extremely poorly. In the first game, I had plenty of fast mana and opened on a W6 off a fetch and mox, with an uncracked lotus in the board. I preceded to flood out completely. When he finally killed me with true-name nemesis, I had all my colour-producing lands in play and three fetch-lands in hand. I sided in a surgical extraction against him (and otherwise followed the sideboard plan). In the second game, I pyroblasted a true-name nemesis (according to plan) but didn't use surgical on it. He played his second the following turn and I was unable to answer it.
Match 5: 0-2 against White Eldrazi.
I got my ass handed to me. White Eldrazi outpowers me on most fronts. Big Thalia played trump in both games. When comparing the decklists, I think I need Knight of the Reliquary to win. I had this player on ravager shops before the tourney, and believe I'm fairly well equipped against that, but not against eldrazi.
In the semis, HolloWine took down Breach, while Doomsday bested White Eldrazi. Doomsday beat HolloWine in an extremely tight finals match. Congrats to all four players!
All in all, I'm happy to have this group of friends and play this yearly tournament. I played fairly well, was only appropriately drunk and was more unlucky than lucky. I think I lost all five die-rolls. I'm as unhappy with the deck as last year. I have stretched the deck tremendously to beat Doomsday and HolloWine and in the process become too weak to beat-down strategies. The match against Doomsday feels about right. The HolloWine player and I played a match for fun after the tourney and he beat me handily in two games, through 2-3 pieces of graveyard disruption as well as turn 1 wasteland both games. That deck feels close to unbeatable, despite being graveyard based. Anyway. Next year I will finally try something else.
the 8.01 and the one below tho are my 2 lists I ran and t8 with, mind you, highly outdated, but the premist remains the same. Hope they give insight sir. Any questions feel free to PM me, I prolly got over 1000 hours in testing these lists on cockatrice.
Not being hit by karakas
Immediate impact unlike titans or the other just big creatures
Constructs are often bigger then griselbrand making him as a body less effective than the sac trigger
Hullbreacher and needle are much less effective as counterplay
Gains life instead of paying it
I agree with @Rat3dE . I can't speak for everyone who runs [[The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale]], but it's a reasonable choice in specific matchups. Like you said, the HollowVine decks don't run a ton of mana to support a Tabernacle, but you'd bring it in only against decks that are even less equipped to handle it.
It looks like partially The Tabernacle is a response to a specific metagame. Is this still the case now?
I don't play online and very irregularly play in paper so my knowledge of the metagame is quite outdated. Nevertheless, I was under impression that Dredge is getting leaner and meaner as a response to fast combos and mid-range controls, not to mentions thanks to new forces (let the force be with us).
I noticed that in the Vintage Challenge #12130342 Dredge and HollowVine 6-1'ed. It would be interesting to hear from the players, but I have no idea if PTarts2win or WingedHussar has a TMD account.
I think the main issue is that this dude might as well cost 10 to cast within the context of your shops deck, and to use a spot in the 75 on it is probably irresponsible. If it had a tax effect instead of a reducing effect I would be more inclined to give it a chance.
@serracollector Thanks for the recommendation. I tried Rishadon Dockhand and Tide Shaper. They were Ok, and I am still testing the Dockhand. The issue is tempo. 2 drops and cards requiring 3 mana really hurt tempo.
@nofuture I guess in my deck the value of pyroblast is a bit greater since it's a way to remove enchantments (like turn 2 oath) or nuke basics so I get max value out of Magus.
I see 1 bolt, 1 fire in your list as the only removal for Ouphe. If your other outs are in the SB, you are likely looking at tutor chain into a possible answer (which means you're not tutoring into a combo). I agree that pyro vs an ancestral or time walk or FoW or something may not be the best (though it is strong), stopping something like turn 1/2 tinker when you just have 1 land IS huge.
On your list specifically, my only recommendation is swapping a bolt and grudge for 2 abrade. You are never whittling the opponent to 3 life with your build, so the burn to the face is irrelevant. When you face an ouphe and draw a grudge, you'll be glad it's abrade instead. The flexibility is big. You lose the ability to bolt a PW, but there are no PWs you really need to try to bolt anyway, as far as I can tell. Oko is immediately a 5 loyalty, and you don't really care about anything else as far as PWs. Maybe Karn, but he's 6 loyalty immediately as well.
You note doomsday and PO are bad matches. Pyro goes a long way in those matches too. Stopping a hand refill (PO), tinker->citadel, or Doomsday when they cast thassa's oracle when they've blown their counters stopping your combo, are really great uses for pyro.
Well, the idea is to get Fastbond out asap, and then something like Treasure Hunt to drop 10 lands, then Limited Resources, and lock the opponent out of playing lands. Competitive? Meh. Fun, definitely. So with the idea of a Bant style list Lavinia could definitely fit the bill. I will work on a list or 2 over the next few nights, and try some games on cockatrice. Once I have a list that's halfway decent, I'll post it, and we can all work from there. Thanks everyone so far for all the idea's!
@protoaddict Re: Noble, I often use her like a great colored mox, more than exalted - but exalted has ground out some games. Moxen in general are not great off-color, and ouphe is a necessary evil that makes moxen worse. ESG is nice, but I think I want them WITH nobles, not in place of. The repeated mana is important often.
Ichorclaw had its place, but with FoV now, I feel it just adds a target to get blown out - killing my dude and a mox, or worse the ichorclaw and an inkmoth.
I'm considering BG as my modern version is a solid deck, whereas my legacy version is just super fast with daze protection that sucks wind after turn 2 or 3. I think if I have ESG and noble, I can turn 2 a crusader easy enough with a 2-color build, especially clearing the road with a duress/seize. Or I could use ritual and a mox to turn 1 duress/crusader. I also get Stinger, which is a fine replacement for Blighted Agent. Having trophy/decay is also fantastic. And black has some bomb spells.
If anybody is interested in producing video content that serves a similar role to a deck primer - a deck tech, video-primer, or vlog that you could point a newer player at ... I'm very open to using TMD as a platform to promote or host that sort of content as well. It doesn't have to be a traditional thread if that's not the best way to showcase the information, we can take "www.themanadrain.com/workshops" and turn that into the best possible landing page for however you'd like to teach a new player about shops, whatever that looks like.
Hatebears are tempting especially because of Drannith, Collector Ouphe and kunoros.
Drannith is intriguing, but I think there are better options like Grafdigger's Cage in particular (unless you want to play Lurrus yourself, which I don't think is very good for the hatebears pilot). Kunoros is interesting as well (I had totally forgotten that that card exists), but I'm not 100% convinced that you actually want to play black in a WGx hatebears shell atm.
I didn't do well with this deck, but my plan was to slow them down with ouphes and make the serpents and other things boltable, or use things like force of vigor to get rid of them. Your also on the perfect colors for ancient grudge.
Masticore is a good card that is often suggested for such a deck. The synergies are pretty nice but often it does not pass the cut.
IMHO, in the upper curve there are better cards to use (namely golos but i would also probably use wurmoil or steel hellkite before it). It is also a bad topdeck and awfull when using uba/bazaar combo.
The main interest is that it provides a very efficient and nullrod-proof effect to ping creatures. That is strong enough and i often test it as a 2-of in sideboard.
@Dr-J I tried horn to begin with figuring an old Turboland deck would be fine, but found that my opp drawing a card(s) was too much of a burden. Even though most decks are land light in vintage it really just means the card draw spells lead to more board advantage/ game ending hits for those decks...
@Serracollector I like the idea of Regrowth a ton, gives me a reason to play with my beta ones 😁, I think my biggest concern with this particular list is playing against Jeskai or Outcome game 1. The Ziasbond list has a much more reasonable game 1 against those decks, but I do feel my list is more explosive. I was really trying to find a way to play Veil of Summer in the main without compromising the land v spell count, so that's my next project
This deck is fun to play. Just wanted to add that. Thanks for brewing it!
Comments like this are one of the reasons I enjoy brewing so much. You are very welcome. Kudos to Volrath for his continued piloting and promotion of the deck and congrats on a well deserved trophy. 🏆 🐠
If another deck gets a particularly good combination of cards then this would lose but that is generally the case in Magic. I'm not sure Karn Forge with a Defense Grid is that combination though, generally a turn 1 Defense Grid means a turn 2 Karn which means Key/Vault or Lattice is turn 3. If it's turn 3 you have a 50% chance of having 3 mana anyway for Force of Vigor or alternatively will have cast one of Pithing Needle/Null Rod or Collector Ouphe. Following that you can drop wasteland effects which will make it hard to hit 6 mana under a Null Rod so Mycosyth Lattice is out of reach and Vault/Key can't activate under Null Rod. If they delay at all then Elvish Reclaimer or Collector Ouphe will be hitting the Karn. You could certainly lose to it but I don't think it would be often enough to be a particular threat. Try the deck against Karn Forge and let me know how it goes, I think that would show the lines of play between the two decks and where any problems are.
@john-cox Wow - that brings back some memories. I haven't looked at that list in forever. I remember the 4x trinisphere days were just absurd, but the 4x chalice version after the trini restriction was still amazing. The ability to mask in a 1cmc dreadnaught through a chalice @1 was the bee's knees. Loved that deck.
Side note - if I remember correctly, at the time, it was the most expensive deck list in paper ever built!
I posted about Engineer earlier, but I thought I would bring it up again.
Goblin Engineer feels absolutely insane. You don't get to do the broken things that Welder is capable of but Goblin Welder always had the issue of consistency. Welder needed set it and required Dacks, Thirsts, Bazaars, multiple copies of similar spells. Engineer doesn't require any of that. Play it with singletons. Go get a Crucible when it's good, a Bridge when it's good, or Time Vault when it's good. Go get Sculpting Sphere and Tangle Wire. Or just go get Trinisphere. And you don't have to worry about @nedleeds favorite card, Misstep.
I know you joke but as a way to get Needle out through the deluge of Skillstep this Goblin is pretty sick. Still might not be fast enough vs. Bazaar on the draw.
It still contributes to non dead cards post board against Dredge. Worth looking at IMO.
This deck in particular is one where you have the liberty to lean on Spyglass more than needle anyway and be "Misstep Proof". Providing you aren't Seppekuing yourself by casting Crop Rotation and Welder game 1.