@Islandswamp Yeah, I like the changes you made in the article on mtggoldfish. Going to test it our for sure.
Deluge was nice because it can hit a wide range of stuff and clear a whole board ], while EE is a little narrower in that it kills only same CMC, but can also kill other problematic permanents besides creatures (like the thorns you had mentioned). Mainly I ran the deluge over the EE because I didn't want to spend the 50+ tickets on an EE, when deluge was pretty effective (and cheap).
Only thing I don't like about the lightning bolts you added is they don't match up well against MM, but I suppose decks with MM you would side them out. It would be a meta question on if they should be in the main deck or not. In the vintage challenge, I played against shops twice, and eldrazi twice. The hurkyl's recall's were the best card in those match ups.
If you can find space, both EE and Deluge are good. In my opinion EE is better if that's all you have because it can kill a thalia and thorn at the same time. Also if Paradoxical outcome passes a turn to you with a lot of artifact mana you can kill it all.
I played in the Vintage Challenge last Saturday with Saheeli Punishing Oath and found it to be very clunky to deal with any oppression. I mainly faced Mentor decks with cages in their sideboards so any anti hate I brought to the field was immediately moot.
Problems I faced:
2 copies of As Foretold with 2 Ancestral Visions was very clunky. Definitely not playing those again in this list.
Vault / Key was in there to focus on Sun Titan synergies. Usually these cards were dead.
Saheeli was cast a lot more times that she should have been.
I saw so many Sun Titans in my draws I couldn't even activate Oath when I needed to.
There were times where I Oathed but could win because I only had one Saheeli available. I couldn't "win" after I got my turn two combo.
I also had unavoidable mulligans that cost me quite a few games. I guess that combined with a very clunky build resulted in my 0-4 on Saturday.
That seems like a list problem, not an archetype problem. IT sounds like your deck was all over the place. I can't imagine ever having space for Vault Key, Saheeli, Titan, AND as Foretold in the same deck.
If you want to plunk down for some Griselbrands (two at least) I can ship you a list if you want. Or you could keep trying Sun Titan, that's a viable choice for people who aren't me.
@Serracollector I sincerely didn't mean to offend you, so I'm sorry if my post came off as rude. I've played Dragon Breath in my Oath decks within the past six months and I KNOW at least some people think that card is a joke. However, I did test the card before revealing that I was running it, so I had some anecdotal evidence of its efficacy.
The card you mentioned COULD be as broken as Time Walk in a Mentor deck, and probably more so in the right situation. The thing is that Time Walk is good in many, many more situations. Time Walk on turn one off a mox buys you another land drop against Workshops which is incredibly beneficial. Time Walk sometimes just cycles for a card, or it acts as bait for terrible players to counter at times where it's basically just a cantrip.
Insult/Injury is going to be a very bad top deck unless you've established a board position that is already immensely favorable to you. This makes it the definition of "Win More" in my opinion.
Since you're on cockatrice you should take a Mentor list, find some flex slots, and jam some games trying random stuff like that. Eventually you might prove everyone in the thread wrong. OR you might try some other idea, do something amazing, then you can screen shot it for us and make a post. That second type of post is something we'd all like to see.
@Brass-Man I have relatively little experience playing Null effects against Ravager Shops. I had been assuming that they were very good against that deck, as well as against Outcome and against 2 Card Monte (Ben Perry), all three of which make up a sizable slice of my metagame pie. Can you walk me through exactly why they aren't strong against Ravager Shops? I'm assuming you favor targeted removal like the By Force, Disenchant, Path, Swords and Fragmentize that I see in your board... true?
As a shops player, the Stony Silence definitely makes it more annoying for me to do Ravager tricks and Ballista hits, but it still doesn't stop me from attacking. You might also be stunting your own development (moxes, lotus, Sensei, etc) while I'll keep rolling along and unless you deal with the creatures, you'll still die, albeit a turn or two later.
@Teazia I have and it's not worth it. A deck running Mystic remora should probably be running no less than four M.Remora which should be enough to get you to your end game just fine, without adding jank.
That being said, I have also tried Braid of fire alongside Energy storm. It's fun and definitely worth looking into as well for a Red, White and blue control deck.
@BandsWithOthers I usually try to run something else out before going for Welder. If I don't reveal red, most people would pitch the mental misstep to FoW.
However, with STP, MM, and FoW everywhere, Welder isn't in a hot place. That's partly why I altered my list to be less reliant on Welder as a whole, and more so having it as something fun. I've won more games with recurring Barbarian Rings, Smokestack locks, etc than welder shenanigans.
@portland I actually don't think Remora is very good right now because tempo-blue is just a lot better than the Weissman style, heavy mana decks. Basically, the strategy of tapping mana every turn to play spells and cantrip and create threats is just a lot stronger right now than leaving land untapped and holding up counterspells (which has at time been really really good... see Gifts)
But with the printing of cards like Mentor, Preordain, Dack, JVP, Cruise, and Dig among others. Tempo or Turbo Xerox style decks have sort of gotten ahead in the arms race a lot, while Weissman style decks haven't gotten much in my opinion.
I think the Remora goes much better with the sit and wait style for obvious reasons. Although Cronistery Mentor is a thing. I just don't think its quite as good as the straightforward method of directly using that mana to pump out threats and fill up graveyards for the inevitable dig or cruise, I also think that stats prove that. Though I can't really say I would like to play against actual Cron on actual Cronistery Mentor. Maybe without so much Gush, it's gotten even better?
But add to all this, the fact that Fish is just bad against a pretty big portion of the meta... all the creature decks. That's my opinion.
@The-Gremlin-Lord Breiwing up a deck with discard creatures, Gemstone Caverns, Chrome Moxen, Forces, as well as Laylines of Anticipation and 4x Days undoing. Not sure if will work, but seems powerful and worth trying out. Ramp, extended hand, flash spells, and 4x 3/4 Time Walk/Time Twister that refills hand after all that pitching. Maybe adding Notion Thief for extra hijinks.
@fsecco Yeah I see that... I'm still not certain about this ruling though.
Anyways... Here's a deck I tested last night. It went 2-2 against a Jeskai build similar to the current one's doing will. This deck is terrified of Null Rod obviously, though doesn't actually just fold to it, and it has a ton of trouble against resolved Planeswalkers. On the upside. As Foretold is crazy with a couple of counters on it. I feel like people are missing the whole "each turn" language on this things. Instants that you can play on opponents turns for free are bonkers. It also plays very nicely with Thoughtseize. In all, this deck is lacking punch right now... maybe a big tinker target or something like that? Idk. Balance opponent's hand away then Jace fateseal is a real thing though.
1 Sol Ring
1 Time Vault
1 Voltaic Key
1 Sensai's Top
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
I agree with @ssasala. After resolving Lotus, I would have played Cavern on Human followed by TKS. You're fairly likely to draw the single mana source you need to play one of your many 2-drops on turn two, and this is probably the only way to get your TKS on the board.
I don't think its better than the others so you don't cut any of the engine cards for it. That means you're cutting a creature for it. But you can't tutor/company for it and it's a dead draw during a glimpse. Its strictly worse than shaman unless your thinking of a different elves shell. The kill through bridge is rec sage.